Ep24: Hummus
If the only hummus you’ve ever had came from a cold tub procured at a supermarket, yeah...you haven’t really had hummus. Homemade hummus, served warm, is an experience unto itself, and 1000% a better snack than a dusty protein bar. Deb and Kenji also tell us how they really feel about flavored hummus.
Recipes Mentioned:
Ethereally Smooth Hummus (Smitten Kitchen)
The Food Lab’s Science of Great Hummus (Serious Eats)
Hummus Heaped with Tomatoes and Cucumbers (Smitten Kitchen)
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<v SPEAKER_2>Kenji, what are you eating?
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<v SPEAKER_3>It's a protein bar.
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<v SPEAKER_3>I have not had a chance to eat anything today.
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<v SPEAKER_3>There's a particularly bad one too.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Are there good ones?
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<v SPEAKER_3>I don't really know.
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<v SPEAKER_2>You know what would be a really good snack?
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<v SPEAKER_3>What would be a good snack?
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<v SPEAKER_2>I'm thinking hummus would be a really nice snack.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Like hummus with carrot sticks is like a real classic.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Maybe you do some pita chips.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Have you ever snacked on hummus before?
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<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I frequently snack on hummus.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I love hummus.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Or hummus, I don't know.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I think it depends on where you're from, how you pronounce it.
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<v SPEAKER_3>I've had friends, various friends from the Middle East who have tried to teach me the correct way to say hummus.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Hummus.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Hummus.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I've heard hummus.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Okay.
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<v SPEAKER_2>So we're just going to call it hummus.
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<v SPEAKER_2>We're just going to give it like an American pronunciation.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I feel like hummus is such a good thing.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I don't know why we have to mess with it to make it a good thing.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Like I saw versions, there's like pumpkin spice hummus is a big thing in Nepal, and I don't want that.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I don't want cinnamon and nutmeg and sugar.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Well, the good thing is that you don't have to have it if you don't want it, Deb.
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<v SPEAKER_2>No, I want to complain about it on my podcast.
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<v SPEAKER_2>That's why I have a podcast.
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<v SPEAKER_2>That's the whole reason I'm here, to complain about things that I'm not going to eat that don't affect me.
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<v SPEAKER_2>From PRX's Radiotopia, this is The Recipe with Kenji and Deb.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Where we help you discover your own perfect recipes.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Kenji is the author of The Food Lab and The Walk, and a columnist for The New York Times.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Deb is the creator of Smitten Kitchen.
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<v SPEAKER_3>She's also the author of three best-selling cookbooks.
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<v SPEAKER_2>We've been professional recipe developers for nearly two decades, and we've got the same basic goal, to make recipes that work for you, and to make you excited to get into the kitchen.
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<v SPEAKER_3>But we've got really different approaches, and on this show, we'll cook and talk about each other's recipes, comparing notes to see what we can learn from each other.
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<v SPEAKER_3>This week, we're talking about hummus.
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<v SPEAKER_2>That's coming up on The Recipe.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Stay with us.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I was trying to find this TikTok.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I'm going sidebar right away.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I saw a couple weeks ago, and this guy was complaining.
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<v SPEAKER_2>He's like, if I come over to your place, and you bring out a container of hummus, it better not have like carrot stick tracks.
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<v SPEAKER_2>And it has to be.
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<v SPEAKER_3>They want it fresh?
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<v SPEAKER_2>It's gotta be fresh.
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<v SPEAKER_2>You do not want to see that somebody else has already dragged a carrot through it.
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<v SPEAKER_3>You want it to look like the top of like a soft serve ice cream.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, it's that idea of a formed shape that has not...
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<v SPEAKER_2>You don't want to see that the hummus has been handled already.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Right.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Track marks, dips, possible crumbs from an old pita.
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<v SPEAKER_2>It's not a mood, as the kids say.
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<v SPEAKER_2>It was hilarious.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I'll have to see if I can find it so we can work in it.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Deb, when you serve hummus, do you just pull the container straight out of the fridge and just plop it on the table and just say, hey kids, go at it?
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<v SPEAKER_3>Or do you...
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<v SPEAKER_3>You know, because I feel like the best hummus is hummus that's either room temperature or even slightly warm, you know, because it's been freshly made and that it has a real effect on the texture of it, on the sort of viscosity and the consistency of it.
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<v SPEAKER_3>What are your thoughts on that?
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<v SPEAKER_2>First of all, I'm appalled that you think I would buy hummus if I could make it at home.
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<v SPEAKER_2>This is called The Recipe, not the container I bought at the store and opened up in front of you.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Of course, we buy hummus too.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I'm with you.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I think room temperature hummus tastes much better.
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<v SPEAKER_2>It really just has, you can get more of the flavors.
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<v SPEAKER_2>When things are cold, the flavor is a little locked down.
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<v SPEAKER_2>You could probably explain the science of that.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I'll just say that things taste more bland when they're cold.
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<v SPEAKER_2>In the same way that like ice cream often needs to be stronger flavored to have flavor than it would if it was melted ice cream puddle.
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<v SPEAKER_3>It's partly just because your nerves are more receptive when they're warmer and also partly because the volatiles, the things that you're smelling are like actual little bits of the stuff flying off and going up into your nose, and the colder something is, the less volatile it is.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Yes, you're getting little bits of hummus flying up into your nose.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I guess it's true that all aromas are airborne particles.
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<v SPEAKER_3>That go into your nose like a lock and key.
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<v SPEAKER_2>A lock and key, wow.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I'm with you that store-bought, it's definitely better at room temperature.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Also, it feels a little softer.
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<v SPEAKER_2>It's easier to scoop.
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<v SPEAKER_3>For me, that's what it is, is that if you've got, say, depending on what you serve your hummus with, but if you've got, so I tend to prefer softer pita, like untoasted pita, but I know a lot of people like pita chips, or sometimes those little subber containers that you get at the airport, they've got the separate container of pretzel chips in the top.
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<v SPEAKER_3>I find when the hummus is too cold, you run into the issue of breaking off the end of the chip, you know, inside the hummus because it's too thick and too viscous.
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<v SPEAKER_3>And to me, that's almost a worse offense than finding a carrot track in your hummus, you know, finding like the tip of someone else's chip in your bite.
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<v SPEAKER_2>It's true.
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<v SPEAKER_2>It's true.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I think it's just, it gives you that like, how old is this?
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<v SPEAKER_2>And where has it been?
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<v SPEAKER_2>And who dragged their carrot stick through here before I got there?
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<v SPEAKER_2>But I really like it with carrots.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I feel like it's so basic.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I also like it with cucumber slice.
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<v SPEAKER_2>You know, cucumber sticks are good if they're not too wet, so it can still pick up.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Other raw vegetables are fantastic for dipping.
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<v SPEAKER_2>But I feel like there's something with the sweetness of carrots and the saltiness of the hummus that are like perfect compadres.
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<v SPEAKER_3>So for me, I actually don't, I don't bother.
00:07:08.762 --> 00:07:12.042
<v SPEAKER_3>Like I do just take the container out of the fridge and put it in front of the kids.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Like for me, hummus is either like a snack of pure convenience, in which case, like I'm not going to pull out a hummus container and let it temper, you know, I'm not thinking about it that far ahead.
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<v SPEAKER_3>It's a snack of pure convenience or it's something that I'm actually going to put work into and like make from scratch.
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<v SPEAKER_3>And if I'm making it from scratch, then I'll actually put in the effort to make it real good and serve it, you know, properly warm or at room temperature, like freshly made.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Because I think it's just like a, it's a real different experience, you know, having freshly made hummus versus hummus that's been like squirted out of a giant nipple into a plastic container in the fridge.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Sounds so good.
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<v SPEAKER_2>God, I'm so hungry right now.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Boy, is this show appetizing.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Do you want to talk a little bit about the history of hummus?
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<v SPEAKER_2>We could talk about the history of hummus.
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<v SPEAKER_3>And we're going to try and do this without wading into too much geopolitical territory here.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Hummus is old.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.
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<v SPEAKER_2>The earliest mention of hummus was apparently in a 13th century cookbook from Aleppo in present day Syria.
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<v SPEAKER_2>But I've mostly understood it to be Egyptian.
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<v SPEAKER_2>How about you, Kenji, historically?
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<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.
00:08:16.182 --> 00:08:18.822
<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, I've known it variously as...
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<v SPEAKER_3>I associated with Middle Eastern countries, in particular Arab countries, and as well in Egypt, where I think in Egypt it's commonly either chickpeas or fava beans.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Fava, right.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Exactly.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Fava bean hummus.
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<v SPEAKER_3>And of course, like in modern times, it's often associated with Israeli cuisine, although it is not originally an Israeli dish.
00:08:35.742 --> 00:08:38.602
<v SPEAKER_3>It's just been sort of widely adopted there.
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<v SPEAKER_3>And so, you know, you'll see it in restaurants from all over the Levant.
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<v SPEAKER_2>And I think that it's been in Egypt and the Levant for centuries, and there are also Jews that go back that far in those areas too, and that's where it gets really muddy, and there is so much argument and contention over it.
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<v SPEAKER_2>But the reality is that it's been there for centuries.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Sure.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Let's talk about how we make hummus.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, I wouldn't say I grew up eating it a ton, to be honest.
00:09:03.242 --> 00:09:05.282
<v SPEAKER_2>Like probably it was more of a snack thing.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Kenji, did you grow up eating a lot of hummus?
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<v SPEAKER_3>Not when I was a real little kid.
00:09:08.082 --> 00:09:09.882
<v SPEAKER_3>You know, I grew up in a Japanese household.
00:09:10.202 --> 00:09:18.242
<v SPEAKER_3>But by the time I was, say, in like sixth or seventh grade, I had a whole lot of Jewish friends and I would get served hummus a lot.
00:09:18.242 --> 00:09:22.962
<v SPEAKER_3>And yeah, I know, I think growing up in New York, you do just get kind of exposed to cuisines from all around the world.
00:09:22.962 --> 00:09:25.862
<v SPEAKER_3>So I had relatively early exposure to hummus.
00:09:25.862 --> 00:09:36.642
<v SPEAKER_3>But I don't think I had like a real great, warm, freshly made, homemade hummus until probably, I don't know, in my late teens or maybe even my 20s.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Café Mounir in Seattle was the first place that I had hummus that blew my mind.
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<v SPEAKER_3>And it was a very similar experience because the hummus, the texture of it is really light, almost fluffy.
00:09:47.622 --> 00:09:49.182
<v SPEAKER_3>And again, it was warm.
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<v SPEAKER_3>There was really good olive oil drizzled on it.
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<v SPEAKER_3>There were some fresh chickpeas that had been cooked from dry, as opposed to the canned chickpeas, which just have so much better flavor.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Dried chickpeas just have much better flavor than what's in the can, which is funny because what's in the can is really just dried chickpeas that are cooked.
00:10:03.962 --> 00:10:06.582
<v SPEAKER_3>But somehow, that canning process...
00:10:06.582 --> 00:10:08.562
<v SPEAKER_2>Isn't there a certain acidity required in canning?
00:10:08.562 --> 00:10:12.162
<v SPEAKER_2>And that's why they end up being a little bit briny or tasting, a little bit tankier tasting?
00:10:12.162 --> 00:10:13.282
<v SPEAKER_3>It could be that, yeah.
00:10:13.282 --> 00:10:14.342
<v SPEAKER_3>That would make sense.
00:10:14.342 --> 00:10:15.922
<v SPEAKER_3>The texture is also a little different, you know.
00:10:15.922 --> 00:10:19.122
<v SPEAKER_3>With canned chickpeas, they tend to be a little bit firmer.
00:10:19.502 --> 00:10:21.342
<v SPEAKER_3>They have like a little bite to them, you know.
00:10:21.582 --> 00:10:29.162
<v SPEAKER_3>And a well-cooked dried chickpea will have like a little bit of bite, but it's not going to be like al dente in the way that like pasta is, you know.
00:10:29.162 --> 00:10:31.282
<v SPEAKER_3>It breaks down into something that's really nice and creamy.
00:10:31.762 --> 00:10:33.862
<v SPEAKER_3>But yeah, like I remember having hummus there.
00:10:33.862 --> 00:10:36.662
<v SPEAKER_3>I was with Naomi Tomke, who is a food, I don't know if you know her.
00:10:36.662 --> 00:10:38.882
<v SPEAKER_3>She's a food writer here in Seattle.
00:10:38.882 --> 00:10:41.682
<v SPEAKER_3>Her Instagram handles gastronome with two Gs.
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<v SPEAKER_3>But yeah, she introduced me to this restaurant Cafe Munir, which is still around and still makes really great hummus.
00:10:47.122 --> 00:10:54.402
<v SPEAKER_3>And that was when I started really thinking, oh, like this is the dish that's different from what I thought it was, and probably worth making at home.
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<v SPEAKER_3>And that's why I sort of had this dichotomy now, I guess, that there's this like, there's the store-bought hummus that is just like what it is, and it can be, I don't care if it's straight out of the fridge, it just is what it is, it tastes fine.
00:11:04.802 --> 00:11:10.822
<v SPEAKER_3>And even from brand to brand, it's like, I don't find that the best brands are much better than the worst brands, it's just, it all just tastes fine.
00:11:10.822 --> 00:11:20.342
<v SPEAKER_2>So I found that when I started making fresh hummus at home, because I was chasing this ideal I'd had at restaurants that was so special to me, I wasn't getting that.
00:11:20.342 --> 00:11:29.002
<v SPEAKER_2>I found that, you know, I would cook, you know, soak the chickpeas, cook the chickpeas, blend it, and it was never so smooth.
00:11:29.602 --> 00:11:32.042
<v SPEAKER_2>And I was really obsessed with getting it smoother.
00:11:32.042 --> 00:11:35.262
<v SPEAKER_2>And I think this is something that comes up in a lot of hummus recipes.
00:11:35.262 --> 00:11:42.402
<v SPEAKER_2>Like, how do you get that incredibly fluffy, smooth, I call it ethereally smooth texture?
00:11:42.402 --> 00:11:46.762
<v SPEAKER_2>Because that, to me, if you can get that, that's worth making at home.
00:11:46.762 --> 00:11:50.502
<v SPEAKER_2>If you're just gonna make something, you know, a little bit gritty or whatever, you might as well buy it.
00:11:50.502 --> 00:11:56.182
<v SPEAKER_2>But there's something, if you can get that right, I wanted to know what the tricks were that they were doing at restaurants.
00:11:56.302 --> 00:12:02.482
<v SPEAKER_2>And I think, I tried it a few different ways, and I think you did too, in coming up with our own recipes for it.
00:12:02.482 --> 00:12:07.002
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, and I think, and you and I actually end up with different techniques, which is real interesting.
00:12:07.002 --> 00:12:08.482
<v SPEAKER_2>Very different.
00:12:08.482 --> 00:12:13.902
<v SPEAKER_3>So in your ethereally smooth hummus, tell us about how you treat the chickpeas.
00:12:13.902 --> 00:12:18.822
<v SPEAKER_2>Previously, I had made it from, you know, I soaked the chickpeas, I'd cook the chickpeas.
00:12:18.822 --> 00:12:20.462
<v SPEAKER_2>And obviously, that's the ideal.
00:12:20.462 --> 00:12:27.722
<v SPEAKER_2>That's the best flavor you're gonna get the most, you know, especially if you have really good dried chickpeas from a place that grows them really nicely.
00:12:27.722 --> 00:12:33.742
<v SPEAKER_2>But I wanted to play around with this idea of what happens if you remove the skin of the chickpeas.
00:12:33.742 --> 00:12:38.022
<v SPEAKER_2>Because basically, you know, chickpeas have this, like, loose skin to them.
00:12:38.022 --> 00:12:40.722
<v SPEAKER_2>And yes, exactly.
00:12:41.742 --> 00:12:52.842
<v SPEAKER_2>And I was just playing around one day, and I realized that the canned chickpeas I had, if you sort of just use very, you know, wash your hands and pop it, you can just, it comes right out of the skin.
00:12:53.042 --> 00:12:57.962
<v SPEAKER_2>I just popped it, and then I popped it, and I made hummus with it, with these skin chickpeas.
00:12:57.962 --> 00:12:59.682
<v SPEAKER_2>And it was the best hummus.
00:12:59.682 --> 00:13:04.142
<v SPEAKER_3>You mean you sat there for, like, three hours popping bathrobes off your chickpeas?
00:13:04.142 --> 00:13:05.262
<v SPEAKER_2>We're going to get into that.
00:13:05.262 --> 00:13:12.442
<v SPEAKER_2>So I made the best hummus of my life, and then I just kept it to myself, because nobody's going to do this, Deb.
00:13:12.442 --> 00:13:13.242
<v SPEAKER_2>This is crazy.
00:13:13.242 --> 00:13:14.782
<v SPEAKER_2>Like, don't even tell people.
00:13:14.782 --> 00:13:20.202
<v SPEAKER_2>It's so insane, the idea of, like, manhandling individual chickpeas.
00:13:20.202 --> 00:13:23.922
<v SPEAKER_2>And then one day, I was like, what if I just timed it?
00:13:23.922 --> 00:13:26.702
<v SPEAKER_2>And it took, it was one can of chickpeas, and it took nine minutes.
00:13:26.702 --> 00:13:30.662
<v SPEAKER_2>And I thought, nine minutes, we don't balk over nine minutes of prep time.
00:13:30.662 --> 00:13:32.522
<v SPEAKER_2>This is not a big deal.
00:13:32.522 --> 00:13:35.122
<v SPEAKER_2>Also, if you miss one or two, it's still going to be delicious.
00:13:35.122 --> 00:13:37.062
<v SPEAKER_2>I also think it might be fun to play right now.
00:13:37.062 --> 00:13:42.442
<v SPEAKER_2>I didn't get into this, but I bet you could fry those chickpea skins and make a really great crackly topping.
00:13:42.442 --> 00:13:43.142
<v SPEAKER_2>That's an interesting idea.
00:13:43.142 --> 00:13:49.022
<v SPEAKER_2>Because that's the part that's really good when you fry chickpeas or you, you know, you know, roast them with olive oil.
00:13:49.022 --> 00:13:50.782
<v SPEAKER_3>They remind me of like, like beetle wings.
00:13:51.162 --> 00:13:53.402
<v SPEAKER_2>Mm, so good.
00:13:53.402 --> 00:13:55.902
<v SPEAKER_2>No, but you're right though.
00:13:55.902 --> 00:13:58.982
<v SPEAKER_2>So yeah, so I basically, I was like nine minutes, I'm like nine minutes, I'm writing it up.
00:13:58.982 --> 00:14:01.062
<v SPEAKER_2>And that's where my ethereally smooth hummus came from.
00:14:01.062 --> 00:14:05.302
<v SPEAKER_2>This insanity of, I'm going to tell you the skin chickpeas, you're going to think I'm insane.
00:14:05.302 --> 00:14:11.562
<v SPEAKER_2>And I always give, you know, listen, if you're happy with the hummus you're making at home and it doesn't involve this, this is not your recipe.
00:14:11.562 --> 00:14:16.782
<v SPEAKER_2>But for the people who have tried it, and it's a really popular recipe on the site, they agree that it really makes a difference.
00:14:17.002 --> 00:14:20.762
<v SPEAKER_3>Have you, have you tried any of the chickpea skin popping tricks?
00:14:20.762 --> 00:14:22.362
<v SPEAKER_2>Are there, wait, there's tricks?
00:14:22.362 --> 00:14:23.062
<v SPEAKER_3>There's a couple of them.
00:14:23.062 --> 00:14:31.842
<v SPEAKER_3>There's like, so you can, you can do similar to like what you would do with, with hazelnut skins where you, where you put the chickpeas, empty the chickpeas over a wire rack.
00:14:31.842 --> 00:14:35.262
<v SPEAKER_3>And then you kind of just like roll them around under your hands and that loosens up the skins.
00:14:35.262 --> 00:14:38.882
<v SPEAKER_3>And then you can dump them in a bowl of cold water and the skins float up.
00:14:38.882 --> 00:14:42.702
<v SPEAKER_3>And you kind of just like massage them a little bit and the skins float up and the chickpeas sink.
00:14:42.702 --> 00:14:43.982
<v SPEAKER_3>And you can kind of scoop them off.
00:14:43.982 --> 00:14:45.482
<v SPEAKER_2>No, I'd love to try that.
00:14:45.482 --> 00:14:46.422
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, it's not perfect.
00:14:47.602 --> 00:14:48.822
<v SPEAKER_3>You don't get every single skin.
00:14:49.422 --> 00:14:51.742
<v SPEAKER_3>It's not as good as popping them off individually by hand.
00:14:51.742 --> 00:14:54.282
<v SPEAKER_3>But it's a lot faster.
00:14:54.282 --> 00:14:55.242
<v SPEAKER_2>Nine minutes?
00:14:55.242 --> 00:14:56.682
<v SPEAKER_2>That's not the end of the...
00:14:56.682 --> 00:14:57.002
<v SPEAKER_2>I know.
00:14:57.002 --> 00:14:59.762
<v SPEAKER_2>Are you wondering what stupid things I do for nine minutes a day?
00:14:59.822 --> 00:15:07.322
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm just thinking like scrolling, watching a TikTok on like why you shouldn't serve hummus with like carrot track marks in it.
00:15:07.322 --> 00:15:09.362
<v SPEAKER_2>Like, I can't...
00:15:09.362 --> 00:15:10.582
<v SPEAKER_2>But yes, it's nine minutes.
00:15:10.582 --> 00:15:13.582
<v SPEAKER_2>And I bet if you got other people involved, it would be more like two or three minutes.
00:15:13.602 --> 00:15:18.662
<v SPEAKER_2>And I felt it was completely worth it for people as unhinged as me or were really chasing this thing.
00:15:18.942 --> 00:15:24.022
<v SPEAKER_2>And also, you were saving time because I wasn't using soak, you know, I wasn't soaking and cooking them.
00:15:24.022 --> 00:15:30.102
<v SPEAKER_2>But I feel like the really good hummus recipes, the really popular ones, they all address the skins in some way.
00:15:30.102 --> 00:15:31.682
<v SPEAKER_2>You have a recipe for The Food Lab, right?
00:15:31.682 --> 00:15:33.362
<v SPEAKER_2>Where you do something similar.
00:15:33.362 --> 00:15:33.922
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.
00:15:33.922 --> 00:15:38.202
<v SPEAKER_2>Because I'll circle back to what I do these days after, but I want to get into your method.
00:15:38.202 --> 00:15:41.222
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, there's two tricks for the smoothness in mine.
00:15:41.222 --> 00:15:45.622
<v SPEAKER_3>And this is actually a technique I learned from Jon Frazer, who's a chef in New York.
00:15:45.622 --> 00:15:52.842
<v SPEAKER_3>But he made some really smooth chickpeas, and I asked him how he did it, and he said, I just boil the crap out of the chickpeas.
00:15:52.842 --> 00:15:54.002
<v SPEAKER_3>And so that's what I do now.
00:15:54.622 --> 00:16:01.122
<v SPEAKER_3>I take the chickpeas, I start with dry chickpeas, I soak them in salted water because that helps actually tenderize the skins a little bit.
00:16:01.122 --> 00:16:02.662
<v SPEAKER_3>Soak them overnight in salted water.
00:16:02.662 --> 00:16:05.982
<v SPEAKER_3>And then the next day I cook them with a carrot, maybe an onion.
00:16:05.982 --> 00:16:08.042
<v SPEAKER_3>You can also just do them straight in water on their own.
00:16:08.042 --> 00:16:11.162
<v SPEAKER_3>And then I add a pinch of baking soda.
00:16:11.162 --> 00:16:15.582
<v SPEAKER_3>So you make the water a little bit alkaline because pectin breaks down better in alkaline water.
00:16:15.582 --> 00:16:21.842
<v SPEAKER_3>So like the carbohydrate glue that holds cells together, vegetable cells together, breaks down better in alkaline water.
00:16:21.842 --> 00:16:25.342
<v SPEAKER_3>And so then you boil the chickpeas until they're really falling apart.
00:16:25.342 --> 00:16:29.562
<v SPEAKER_3>So beyond al dente, like you want them to be kind of mushy.
00:16:29.562 --> 00:16:34.242
<v SPEAKER_3>And then the trick is you blend them while they're still hot, like while they're still real piping hot.
00:16:34.242 --> 00:16:38.182
<v SPEAKER_3>I just put them straight into like a Vitamix or any good blender.
00:16:38.182 --> 00:16:41.282
<v SPEAKER_3>You blend them while they're hot and that way you can use a blender as opposed to...
00:16:41.862 --> 00:16:45.982
<v SPEAKER_3>Once they start to cool down, they get a little thicker and they won't go down into the bottom of a blender.
00:16:45.982 --> 00:16:50.762
<v SPEAKER_3>And so you have to put them in a food processor and instead in a food processor it just doesn't get things as smooth.
00:16:50.762 --> 00:16:53.142
<v SPEAKER_2>So you're using a Vitamix or a high-speed blender like that?
00:16:53.142 --> 00:16:54.362
<v SPEAKER_3>Any kind of high-speed blender, yeah.
00:16:54.362 --> 00:16:58.742
<v SPEAKER_3>Or even a regular blender will work better than a food processor will.
00:16:58.742 --> 00:17:05.502
<v SPEAKER_3>But the key is that you have to do it while they're still hot so that they can create the proper sort of vortex and actually get smooth.
00:17:05.502 --> 00:17:19.502
<v SPEAKER_3>And then if you want it real, real extra smooth, you can pour it and push it through a conical strainer, a fine mesh strainer, and then let it cool to room temperature, slightly above room temperature, and you're going to have like super, super creamy smooth hummus.
00:17:19.802 --> 00:17:21.782
<v SPEAKER_3>I guess it takes more tools than your method does.
00:17:21.782 --> 00:17:23.542
<v SPEAKER_2>But maybe a little less insanity.
00:17:26.622 --> 00:17:27.582
<v SPEAKER_3>Less tedium, you know.
00:17:28.122 --> 00:17:33.382
<v SPEAKER_3>I'd rather spend 20 minutes playing with tools than nine minutes squeezing individual chickpeas.
00:17:33.382 --> 00:17:43.582
<v SPEAKER_3>I was going to say when you were talking about the insanity of peeling a can of individual chickpeas, I used to work at a restaurant where in the spring, we would make an English pea soup.
00:17:43.582 --> 00:17:50.242
<v SPEAKER_3>And to make the bowls of pea soup, we would shell the peas, blanch them, and then peel each individual pea.
00:17:50.242 --> 00:17:51.262
<v SPEAKER_2>Why would you peel a pea?
00:17:51.262 --> 00:17:52.842
<v SPEAKER_2>What's wrong with pea skins?
00:17:53.322 --> 00:17:56.102
<v SPEAKER_3>To get smoother, tastier soup.
00:17:56.102 --> 00:17:56.622
<v SPEAKER_3>So?
00:17:56.622 --> 00:18:02.562
<v SPEAKER_3>To get like a soup that's really sweet and very, very pea-y, and very, very smooth.
00:18:02.562 --> 00:18:03.862
<v SPEAKER_2>No, that's accurate.
00:18:03.862 --> 00:18:05.362
<v SPEAKER_2>That's exactly how I would describe it.
00:18:07.302 --> 00:18:12.242
<v SPEAKER_2>Because my first thought is, so your method, you're using a mixtures.
00:18:12.242 --> 00:18:13.182
<v SPEAKER_2>You've got a couple of techniques.
00:18:13.182 --> 00:18:15.522
<v SPEAKER_2>You're cooking with salt for tenderization.
00:18:15.522 --> 00:18:16.662
<v SPEAKER_2>You're using baking soda.
00:18:16.662 --> 00:18:17.722
<v SPEAKER_3>Soaking with salt.
00:18:17.722 --> 00:18:19.622
<v SPEAKER_2>Soaking them with salt for tenderization.
00:18:19.622 --> 00:18:29.082
<v SPEAKER_2>You are using baking soda to help break down the skins and then blend them while hot, where you're three non-popping chickpea moments to get the hummus the way you want.
00:18:29.082 --> 00:18:31.062
<v SPEAKER_3>Those are my, yeah, exactly, exactly.
00:18:31.062 --> 00:18:40.302
<v SPEAKER_3>When I'm making hummus, if I put a vegetable in there while the chickpeas are simmering, if I'm starting from dry chickpeas, I'll also generally just blend that vegetable right in.
00:18:40.302 --> 00:18:42.442
<v SPEAKER_3>So instead of picking it out, I just throw it in the blender.
00:18:42.442 --> 00:18:44.582
<v SPEAKER_3>You know, you blend it all and it makes it tasty.
00:18:44.582 --> 00:18:47.842
<v SPEAKER_2>I was so close to agreeing on the idea of a blended carrot in my hummus.
00:18:47.842 --> 00:18:50.562
<v SPEAKER_2>Sounds so sweet and orange.
00:18:50.562 --> 00:18:56.022
<v SPEAKER_2>And I mean, I'm all for like not wasting vegetables, but carrots are to be dipped in hummus, not to be blended in.
00:18:56.022 --> 00:18:57.222
<v SPEAKER_2>But I'm a purist.
00:18:57.222 --> 00:18:59.702
<v SPEAKER_2>I really like hummus flavored hummus.
00:18:59.702 --> 00:19:02.222
<v SPEAKER_3>You're a purist, not a pure pureist.
00:19:02.222 --> 00:19:03.542
<v SPEAKER_2>I like hummus flavored hummus.
00:19:03.802 --> 00:19:23.662
<v SPEAKER_2>And by the way, I think we forgot to start with the ingredients because we just think they're so common, like that you wouldn't have to explain it, but most hummus, say the vast majority of hummus recipes are chickpeas, sesame seeds in the format of sesame seed paste, tahini, lemon juice, and garlic, and then olive oil.
00:19:23.662 --> 00:19:24.902
<v SPEAKER_3>If you're not making fava.
00:19:24.902 --> 00:19:28.222
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, unless the Egyptian hummus is with fava.
00:19:28.222 --> 00:19:38.302
<v SPEAKER_2>So several years after I published my ethereally smooth hummus for crazy people who don't mind popping chickpeas out of their skins.
00:19:38.622 --> 00:19:40.542
<v SPEAKER_3>That's a real long recipe title.
00:19:40.542 --> 00:19:41.202
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I know.
00:19:41.302 --> 00:19:42.282
<v SPEAKER_2>We're really going for it.
00:19:42.542 --> 00:19:45.242
<v SPEAKER_2>We need to get the SEO on this.
00:19:45.242 --> 00:19:49.382
<v SPEAKER_2>Somebody sent me an email and said, Deb, why are you doing this?
00:19:49.382 --> 00:19:52.282
<v SPEAKER_2>And I'm like, well, there's a lot of reasons we can talk about in therapy.
00:19:52.282 --> 00:19:58.022
<v SPEAKER_2>But they asked me why I wasn't using chana dal.
00:19:58.022 --> 00:20:12.302
<v SPEAKER_2>So I think it was almost 10 years later that somebody had pointed out that if you buy dried chana dal, which are also sold as split chickpeas or bengal gram, usually they're at Indian grocery stores or international grocery stores, or you can buy them online.
00:20:12.302 --> 00:20:16.242
<v SPEAKER_2>I actually meant to grab a bag from Offset that I have.
00:20:16.242 --> 00:20:19.042
<v SPEAKER_2>But basically what they are is they're already peeled chickpeas.
00:20:19.302 --> 00:20:24.002
<v SPEAKER_2>They are the split pea to the pea.
00:20:24.002 --> 00:20:31.902
<v SPEAKER_2>And in the manufacturing process, which involves cleaning, dehusking, splitting, polishing, the skin is lost.
00:20:31.902 --> 00:20:36.862
<v SPEAKER_2>So you basically can make your perfect hummus the way I described it, but you're not de-skinning them.
00:20:36.862 --> 00:20:39.062
<v SPEAKER_3>It's like a pre-skinned chickpea.
00:20:39.062 --> 00:20:40.702
<v SPEAKER_2>It's a pre-skinned chickpea.
00:20:40.702 --> 00:20:45.922
<v SPEAKER_2>And it's absolutely, if you don't mind me saying, brilliant.
00:20:45.922 --> 00:20:51.322
<v SPEAKER_2>And so by this mixing of the cultures, you go to the Indian grocery store.
00:20:51.322 --> 00:20:53.742
<v SPEAKER_2>Again, there are plenty of other cultures that use it.
00:20:53.742 --> 00:21:02.122
<v SPEAKER_3>Is it just that you're passing off your nine minutes of chickpea peeling to like a Bangladeshi child who's-
00:21:02.122 --> 00:21:03.162
<v SPEAKER_2>No, there are machines.
00:21:03.162 --> 00:21:03.662
<v SPEAKER_2>There are machines.
00:21:03.662 --> 00:21:08.002
<v SPEAKER_2>I actually was looking up videos on it because I was curious about the manufacturing process.
00:21:08.002 --> 00:21:14.522
<v SPEAKER_2>But yes, from what I understand, there are machines that take care of this, that roll them, that de-husk them.
00:21:14.642 --> 00:21:19.822
<v SPEAKER_2>It's similar to lentil or probably what's done in split peas, where you buy split peas for sale.
00:21:19.822 --> 00:21:21.882
<v SPEAKER_2>I was thinking of that when you said you had to skin peas.
00:21:21.882 --> 00:21:25.202
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm like, but you could just use split peas, but they won't be fresh from a farm.
00:21:25.202 --> 00:21:26.422
<v SPEAKER_3>That's not quite the same, yeah.
00:21:30.062 --> 00:21:39.502
<v SPEAKER_2>You are going to soak it and you are going to cook it, but it actually takes half the time of dried chickpeas, but it takes a lot less time because you don't have that skin to soften.
00:21:39.502 --> 00:21:40.722
<v SPEAKER_3>Because the skins are the toughest part.
00:21:40.722 --> 00:21:41.382
<v SPEAKER_2>Exactly.
00:21:41.382 --> 00:21:43.722
<v SPEAKER_2>Once again, you can cook it real soft.
00:21:43.722 --> 00:21:50.322
<v SPEAKER_2>These are not beans that we're going to eat whole, so you don't need it to have that perfect al dente tenderness.
00:21:50.322 --> 00:21:53.762
<v SPEAKER_2>You actually, like you found, want to cook them longer.
00:21:53.802 --> 00:21:57.882
<v SPEAKER_2>But the whole process, I guess it takes longer than nine minutes.
00:21:57.882 --> 00:22:04.922
<v SPEAKER_2>But the flavor is unparalleled because you're starting with something dried and you're getting that and it's such a cool method.
00:22:04.922 --> 00:22:06.282
<v SPEAKER_2>Actually, I should do a video on it.
00:22:06.282 --> 00:22:07.902
<v SPEAKER_3>That is brilliant.
00:22:08.182 --> 00:22:09.402
<v SPEAKER_3>It's like a no method method.
00:22:09.402 --> 00:22:11.662
<v SPEAKER_3>It's just you start with an easier ingredient.
00:22:11.662 --> 00:22:11.982
<v SPEAKER_2>Exactly.
00:22:11.982 --> 00:22:15.802
<v SPEAKER_2>But it was such a, like I really had no idea.
00:22:15.802 --> 00:22:17.022
<v SPEAKER_2>So I want my nine minutes back.
00:22:17.022 --> 00:22:20.902
<v SPEAKER_2>I guess I am trading it for an hour of soaking and then maybe an hour to hour and a half of simmering.
00:22:20.902 --> 00:22:22.742
<v SPEAKER_2>But in general, they do cook a lot faster.
00:22:23.322 --> 00:22:25.782
<v SPEAKER_2>So it's really cool and they're pretty inexpensive.
00:22:25.782 --> 00:22:31.562
<v SPEAKER_2>I think I most recently bought like a four pound bag because I just wanted to make a lot of hummus and they're delicious.
00:22:31.562 --> 00:22:32.282
<v SPEAKER_3>Nice.
00:22:32.282 --> 00:22:37.922
<v SPEAKER_2>So we just talked about all the ways to chickpea, dried, fresh, peeled, split.
00:22:37.922 --> 00:22:44.702
<v SPEAKER_2>But when we come back, we're going to talk about the rest of the ingredients and hummus, including tahini and garlic and everything good you put on top.
00:22:44.702 --> 00:22:45.442
<v SPEAKER_3>Lemon.
00:22:45.442 --> 00:22:45.762
<v SPEAKER_2>Lemon.
00:23:07.435 --> 00:23:09.195
<v SPEAKER_3>Welcome back to The Recipe.
00:23:09.195 --> 00:23:10.935
<v SPEAKER_3>So Deb, tahini.
00:23:10.935 --> 00:23:11.535
<v SPEAKER_2>Tahini.
00:23:11.535 --> 00:23:13.115
<v SPEAKER_3>Talk to me about tahini, yeah.
00:23:13.115 --> 00:23:17.475
<v SPEAKER_2>So tahini is a Middle Eastern condiment made from ground sesame seeds.
00:23:17.475 --> 00:23:26.275
<v SPEAKER_2>I actually, I hadn't done, I just understood it to be sesame seeds toasted, blended, like almost like a nut butter, but with sesame seeds.
00:23:26.275 --> 00:23:26.755
<v SPEAKER_2>I hadn't-
00:23:26.755 --> 00:23:27.975
<v SPEAKER_3>Do they have to be toasted even?
00:23:27.975 --> 00:23:30.555
<v SPEAKER_2>That's what I realized that I was not correct on.
00:23:30.555 --> 00:23:35.455
<v SPEAKER_2>I think it's actually not usually toasted, or it might have more of that sesame oil flavor, like the Asian-
00:23:35.455 --> 00:23:43.895
<v SPEAKER_3>Because I'm pretty sure one of the big differences between tahini and a Chinese sesame paste is that Chinese sesame paste tends to be toasted.
00:23:43.895 --> 00:23:52.395
<v SPEAKER_3>If you're cooking a Chinese dish, like a sesame noodle or something, and you can't find proper roasted sesame paste, you can take tahini and cook it in a skillet.
00:23:52.395 --> 00:23:53.415
<v SPEAKER_3>Really?
00:23:53.415 --> 00:23:54.895
<v SPEAKER_3>You can toast it even after it's ground.
00:23:55.335 --> 00:23:57.775
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, you can cook it down and it'll turn nice and dark brown.
00:23:57.775 --> 00:24:01.915
<v SPEAKER_2>Is it like browning butter where you can toast the solids that are in tahini?
00:24:02.495 --> 00:24:05.135
<v SPEAKER_3>The solids end up toasting, yeah, but it doesn't split like brown butter does.
00:24:05.655 --> 00:24:06.755
<v SPEAKER_3>It'll just gradually darken.
00:24:07.075 --> 00:24:15.875
<v SPEAKER_3>You get like a rubber spatula, a nonstick skillet or a wok or something like that, and you just stir it around as it cooks and it will toast in the pan, and you can use that as an ingredient.
00:24:15.875 --> 00:24:16.475
<v SPEAKER_2>That's a great tip.
00:24:16.475 --> 00:24:18.655
<v SPEAKER_2>And it also explains why they taste so radically different.
00:24:18.655 --> 00:24:24.475
<v SPEAKER_2>Roasted sesame oil is such a dynamic flavor, and tahini has a much, it's got a fresher flavor.
00:24:24.615 --> 00:24:30.135
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, it still has a little bit more of the bitterness that's natural in sesame seeds.
00:24:30.135 --> 00:24:37.575
<v SPEAKER_2>But I actually hadn't realized that sometimes it uses hold sesame seeds, not just unhold.
00:24:37.575 --> 00:24:41.215
<v SPEAKER_2>And I hadn't realized that, and I'm not sure.
00:24:41.215 --> 00:24:43.335
<v SPEAKER_2>Have you ever made tahini from scratch before?
00:24:43.335 --> 00:24:50.075
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, and you know what I did was I used to make it with unhold sesame seeds, and then one day I decided I'm going to haul my sesame seeds, and I sat there and I peeled.
00:24:50.095 --> 00:24:51.135
<v SPEAKER_2>You popped them all in your fingers?
00:24:51.135 --> 00:24:53.875
<v SPEAKER_3>Popped each individual sesame seed.
00:24:53.875 --> 00:24:57.835
<v SPEAKER_2>And then 10 years later, you have your first sesame test done.
00:24:57.835 --> 00:25:00.135
<v SPEAKER_3>Honestly, it only took like two and a half years.
00:25:03.695 --> 00:25:15.335
<v SPEAKER_3>I find that one of the big problems with tahini is that if you're not using it regularly and you have a container of it, it separates and then you get the oil at the top and then the bottom is just like cement.
00:25:15.335 --> 00:25:16.255
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, exactly.
00:25:16.735 --> 00:25:23.455
<v SPEAKER_3>So tahini is one of the most difficult things to remix in a container once it's split.
00:25:23.455 --> 00:25:25.375
<v SPEAKER_3>You have to really jam a spoon down in there.
00:25:25.375 --> 00:25:36.635
<v SPEAKER_3>I've broken and bent metal utensils inside a jar of tahini in the past just because it was sitting on the supermarket shelf for too long and I opened it up and I'm like, oh no, solid block of cement at the bottom.
00:25:36.635 --> 00:25:42.155
<v SPEAKER_2>So tahini is just the whole sesame seeds blended with usually some oil and salt.
00:25:42.155 --> 00:25:43.895
<v SPEAKER_2>Is there something else in there that I'm missing?
00:25:43.895 --> 00:25:45.955
<v SPEAKER_3>I don't think there's even necessarily always oil or salt.
00:25:46.015 --> 00:25:51.895
<v SPEAKER_3>I think sometimes it's just often it's just sesame seeds and the oil comes from the seeds themselves.
00:25:51.895 --> 00:25:53.535
<v SPEAKER_3>The oil that splits off.
00:25:53.535 --> 00:25:54.715
<v SPEAKER_3>But no, I mean, that's basically it.
00:25:54.815 --> 00:26:03.475
<v SPEAKER_3>But the thing about tahini is that it's sort of similar to how za'atar is a single, it's time, but it's also a spice blend.
00:26:03.475 --> 00:26:09.735
<v SPEAKER_3>Tahini is a sesame paste, but it's also a sauce made with that sesame paste.
00:26:09.735 --> 00:26:10.635
<v SPEAKER_3>Exactly.
00:26:10.635 --> 00:26:17.995
<v SPEAKER_3>When you're talking about tahini, the condiment, tahini, the paste, is just a single ingredient in that condiment.
00:26:17.995 --> 00:26:20.635
<v SPEAKER_2>Every time I make hummus, I feel like I'm going really easy on the garlic.
00:26:20.635 --> 00:26:27.335
<v SPEAKER_2>I like it, but you often don't know how loud that garlic is going to get until the next day or a few hours later.
00:26:27.335 --> 00:26:29.495
<v SPEAKER_2>If you put a lot in in the beginning, oh, I don't taste it.
00:26:29.495 --> 00:26:35.255
<v SPEAKER_2>I feel like it takes some time for the garlic to disperse, to release all of its flavor.
00:26:35.255 --> 00:26:41.835
<v SPEAKER_2>Sometimes it's just a couple of cloves, but this microplane can make an entire batch of hummus taste tremendously garlicy.
00:26:41.835 --> 00:26:47.315
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, microplaning garlic is a way to really get it pungent.
00:26:47.315 --> 00:26:48.035
<v SPEAKER_3>You get one clove a lot further.
00:26:48.035 --> 00:26:49.855
<v SPEAKER_3>Because you're really mangling the cells up.
00:26:50.815 --> 00:26:53.335
<v SPEAKER_3>You're getting a lot of those strong flavors when you microplane garlic.
00:26:53.655 --> 00:26:54.915
<v SPEAKER_3>I use a microplane often.
00:26:54.915 --> 00:26:59.475
<v SPEAKER_3>Generally, if I'm cooking something, I might microplane the garlic directly into the pan.
00:26:59.475 --> 00:27:03.575
<v SPEAKER_3>It goes straight from the microplane into the hot oil or butter or whatever it is.
00:27:03.575 --> 00:27:11.415
<v SPEAKER_3>But yeah, if you microplane garlic and let it sit in a cold salad dressing or let it sit just on the counter, it gets real stinky pretty fast.
00:27:11.415 --> 00:27:13.175
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm really sharp on the tongue.
00:27:13.175 --> 00:27:14.135
<v SPEAKER_2>Where's my daughter called it?
00:27:14.135 --> 00:27:14.955
<v SPEAKER_2>Very spicy.
00:27:14.955 --> 00:27:17.315
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't like this.
00:27:17.315 --> 00:27:18.395
<v SPEAKER_3>Spicy hummus.
00:27:18.395 --> 00:27:23.315
<v SPEAKER_3>Speaking of spicy hummus, do you ever add other flavors to your hummus?
00:27:23.315 --> 00:27:24.495
<v SPEAKER_3>Paprika is a common addition.
00:27:24.495 --> 00:27:27.095
<v SPEAKER_3>Some people like to add the lepo chili.
00:27:27.095 --> 00:27:30.855
<v SPEAKER_3>People add cumin is a real common addition to hummus.
00:27:30.855 --> 00:27:32.155
<v SPEAKER_3>Do you do anything like that?
00:27:32.155 --> 00:27:32.835
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't.
00:27:32.835 --> 00:27:37.495
<v SPEAKER_2>I really like the pure taste of the chickpeas, the tahini, the lemon juice, the garlic.
00:27:37.495 --> 00:27:39.615
<v SPEAKER_2>But I love putting stuff on top of hummus.
00:27:39.615 --> 00:27:41.775
<v SPEAKER_2>Hummus piled with things is my favorite.
00:27:41.775 --> 00:27:45.035
<v SPEAKER_2>I love, if I want, maybe I'll put cumin on one part of it.
00:27:45.035 --> 00:27:48.275
<v SPEAKER_2>If you're spreading it out over a plate, maybe I'm putting paprika on it.
00:27:48.275 --> 00:27:54.695
<v SPEAKER_2>I use the tar a lot for both the herb and the herb blend, which is generally how it's sold.
00:27:54.695 --> 00:27:57.735
<v SPEAKER_2>I also love using sumac.
00:27:57.735 --> 00:27:58.455
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I love sumac.
00:27:58.815 --> 00:28:00.255
<v SPEAKER_2>It's such a delicious spice.
00:28:00.255 --> 00:28:01.435
<v SPEAKER_2>It's a little bit sour.
00:28:01.435 --> 00:28:05.875
<v SPEAKER_2>It looks like a dark garnet red paprika, a little slightly bigger flakes.
00:28:05.875 --> 00:28:08.575
<v SPEAKER_3>But it has a real lemony tart flavor.
00:28:08.695 --> 00:28:11.015
<v SPEAKER_2>And it's also just gorgeous in salads.
00:28:11.015 --> 00:28:12.495
<v SPEAKER_3>It is pretty, yeah.
00:28:12.495 --> 00:28:13.495
<v SPEAKER_2>So I like using that.
00:28:13.495 --> 00:28:13.835
<v SPEAKER_2>How about you?
00:28:13.835 --> 00:28:15.635
<v SPEAKER_2>Do you flavor your hummus?
00:28:15.915 --> 00:28:21.755
<v SPEAKER_3>I might sprinkle it with some za'atar or sumac, sometimes chilies depending on who I'm serving it to.
00:28:21.755 --> 00:28:26.935
<v SPEAKER_3>Recently, I've done it with a lepo chili butter or lepo chili olive oil, which I think is really tasty.
00:28:26.935 --> 00:28:28.135
<v SPEAKER_3>That only works when it's warm.
00:28:28.135 --> 00:28:33.715
<v SPEAKER_3>But for me, actually, I think one of the most important parts of hummus is how you plate it, actually.
00:28:34.235 --> 00:28:40.515
<v SPEAKER_3>Because just like plopping it in a bowl, where you have more volume and less surface area doesn't work for me.
00:28:41.615 --> 00:28:42.775
<v SPEAKER_3>I want a wide plate.
00:28:42.775 --> 00:28:57.135
<v SPEAKER_3>The same way I would do labneh, you get a wide plate, you spoon it and then you spread it with the back of the spoon and you try and make a circular swirl with a trough so that when you pour some olive oil on there, there's a nice ring of olive oil that pulls in there.
00:28:57.135 --> 00:29:05.835
<v SPEAKER_3>Then you can put some spices or whatever on top, and then when you go in and you scoop with your pita or your carrot or whatever, you create a new path.
00:29:05.975 --> 00:29:18.395
<v SPEAKER_3>It's like when you were a kid and you went to the Science Museum, and then at least the Science Museum now has this big sandbox, where there's a camera above it that projects a terrain on it.
00:29:18.395 --> 00:29:26.695
<v SPEAKER_3>So if you pile the sand up high, it'll project brown on top so it looks like mountains, and where the sand dips down low, it projects blue so it looks like rivers.
00:29:26.755 --> 00:29:30.535
<v SPEAKER_3>And so you can form rivers by tracing your hand through the sand.
00:29:30.535 --> 00:29:32.815
<v SPEAKER_3>If you've ever played Sim City, it's like that.
00:29:33.015 --> 00:29:35.595
<v SPEAKER_3>You can dig troughs where the water flows.
00:29:35.595 --> 00:29:44.935
<v SPEAKER_3>Whenever I eat hummus like that, I imagine myself as one of these Sim City gods, where I'm digging a new trough for a river of olive oil to flow through.
00:29:44.935 --> 00:29:48.235
<v SPEAKER_3>So I think of my hummus as a landscape that I'm-
00:29:48.235 --> 00:29:49.335
<v SPEAKER_2>So you're having fun with your hands.
00:29:49.335 --> 00:29:50.815
<v SPEAKER_3>Fashioning with my own hands.
00:29:50.815 --> 00:29:53.395
<v SPEAKER_3>If you want to call creating new worlds playing, then sure.
00:29:54.215 --> 00:29:56.115
<v SPEAKER_2>You want to undermine my experience.
00:29:58.235 --> 00:29:59.955
<v SPEAKER_2>I also have fun swirling on the plate.
00:30:00.295 --> 00:30:01.675
<v SPEAKER_2>I just love the shape of it.
00:30:01.675 --> 00:30:08.915
<v SPEAKER_2>I love that restaurant look when you get the hummus, and it does create ways to puddle olive oil.
00:30:08.915 --> 00:30:14.535
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm coming back to the nacho idea where I like it things more piled on where each bite is going to be a little bit different.
00:30:14.535 --> 00:30:16.475
<v SPEAKER_2>Like this one's more chickpea and this is more style.
00:30:16.475 --> 00:30:17.995
<v SPEAKER_3>A bit of a genaity.
00:30:18.275 --> 00:30:18.795
<v SPEAKER_2>Exactly.
00:30:18.795 --> 00:30:19.615
<v SPEAKER_2>I like things.
00:30:20.175 --> 00:30:22.655
<v SPEAKER_2>I really like unmixed food.
00:30:22.655 --> 00:30:25.715
<v SPEAKER_2>I tend to like it so every bite's a little bit different.
00:30:25.715 --> 00:30:27.595
<v SPEAKER_2>Do you like hummus for dinner?
00:30:27.735 --> 00:30:29.175
<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, when you're making your own.
00:30:29.175 --> 00:30:35.875
<v SPEAKER_2>Because once you've made your own amazing hummus, like with any of our techniques, I mean, this is not just a snack.
00:30:35.875 --> 00:30:37.035
<v SPEAKER_2>This is centerpiece hummus.
00:30:37.035 --> 00:30:37.995
<v SPEAKER_3>Oh, no.
00:30:37.995 --> 00:30:38.315
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.
00:30:38.315 --> 00:30:44.815
<v SPEAKER_2>So do you ever make it like the center of the meal, like putting enough stuff around it that you can build a whole meal around it?
00:30:44.815 --> 00:30:45.035
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.
00:30:45.035 --> 00:30:45.395
<v SPEAKER_3>Exactly.
00:30:45.855 --> 00:30:50.955
<v SPEAKER_3>If it's like you eat it like meze style and just have a bunch of things around.
00:30:50.955 --> 00:30:51.515
<v SPEAKER_3>For sure.
00:30:51.515 --> 00:30:51.935
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.
00:30:52.215 --> 00:30:52.955
<v SPEAKER_3>I like eating like that.
00:30:52.955 --> 00:30:58.235
<v SPEAKER_3>I like having just grazing on a bunch of different things in the middle of the table, including a pile of hummus.
00:30:58.235 --> 00:31:05.155
<v SPEAKER_2>This is one that I do a lot in the summer where basically, it's called hummus heaped with tomatoes and cucumbers because I love a long recipe title.
00:31:05.155 --> 00:31:11.795
<v SPEAKER_2>But it's basically like one of those Arabic or Middle Eastern salads with the tomatoes and the cucumbers, the onion, parsley, lemon juice.
00:31:11.795 --> 00:31:15.115
<v SPEAKER_2>I always put a lot of sumac in that one too, olive oil.
00:31:15.115 --> 00:31:21.195
<v SPEAKER_2>We use grusely grilled pita wedges to scoop it up, but it's such a nice way to eat it in the summer.
00:31:21.195 --> 00:31:30.055
<v SPEAKER_2>Sometimes if we're doing it purely for dinner, I might add, I have a recipe for spiced turkey meatballs that you just roast on a sheet pan, and they're mini.
00:31:30.415 --> 00:31:38.815
<v SPEAKER_2>They're falafel-flavored meatballs, which sounds all wrong, but it's got the hummus and the garlic, and I'm sorry, the hummus is the cumin and some other Middle Eastern spices in it.
00:31:39.235 --> 00:31:40.735
<v SPEAKER_2>And it's such a good dinner.
00:31:40.735 --> 00:31:44.955
<v SPEAKER_2>You're dipping the meatballs in the hummus, you've got this tomato cucumber salad, you have pitas.
00:31:44.955 --> 00:31:45.935
<v SPEAKER_2>It's really fun.
00:31:45.935 --> 00:31:48.635
<v SPEAKER_2>You're eating a nice balanced meal, but it's also really summery.
00:32:00.268 --> 00:32:02.148
<v SPEAKER_2>Kenji, have you ever tried?
00:32:02.148 --> 00:32:03.208
<v SPEAKER_3>Waffling hummus?
00:32:03.208 --> 00:32:04.348
<v SPEAKER_2>Snickerdoodle hummus?
00:32:04.348 --> 00:32:05.368
<v SPEAKER_3>Snickerdoodle hummus.
00:32:05.368 --> 00:32:08.348
<v SPEAKER_2>Chocolate m-mango hummus?
00:32:08.348 --> 00:32:09.348
<v SPEAKER_2>Red velvet hummus?
00:32:11.248 --> 00:32:16.268
<v SPEAKER_3>This feels like now we're entering, like hummus is just a texture as opposed to a food.
00:32:16.268 --> 00:32:27.448
<v SPEAKER_2>I do feel like this is like a real American food thing, though, where we take something that exists and like drain it of flavor and then apply an artificial flavor to it.
00:32:27.448 --> 00:32:28.048
<v SPEAKER_2>You know what I mean?
00:32:28.128 --> 00:32:35.188
<v SPEAKER_2>Like I think of, I don't know, just like flavored, like things that are flavored in ways that they don't need to be.
00:32:35.188 --> 00:32:35.528
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.
00:32:35.528 --> 00:32:38.648
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, why do you, why do you, Deb, why do you hate America?
00:32:38.648 --> 00:32:45.848
<v SPEAKER_2>I celebrate the spirit of innovation in America while also never wanting to put anything called red velvet hummus in my mouth.
00:32:45.848 --> 00:32:49.148
<v SPEAKER_2>Like, I mean, I think both, both things can be true.
00:32:49.148 --> 00:32:50.608
<v SPEAKER_2>Yay, innovation.
00:32:50.608 --> 00:32:51.928
<v SPEAKER_2>Boo, I don't want to eat that.
00:32:51.928 --> 00:33:01.708
<v SPEAKER_2>I do feel like maybe classic hummus isn't as marketable as, like, something that makes people go, red velvet hummus, and it's vegan, you know.
00:33:01.708 --> 00:33:09.288
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I mean, of all the things that I want to put in my mouth, red velvet hummus is, yes, not, I don't think it's on that list.
00:33:09.288 --> 00:33:12.068
<v SPEAKER_2>Didn't even rank a strawberry daiquiri hummus.
00:33:12.068 --> 00:33:13.948
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, God.
00:33:15.928 --> 00:33:17.668
<v SPEAKER_2>I just like hummus, flavored hummus.
00:33:17.768 --> 00:33:22.768
<v SPEAKER_3>Sorry, if you love strawberry, I did not mean to yuck your yum if you love strawberry daiquiri hummus.
00:33:25.008 --> 00:33:30.088
<v SPEAKER_2>I think we try not to yuck yum, but I think we can yuck that yum.
00:33:31.168 --> 00:33:33.628
<v SPEAKER_2>Because chickpeas were never meant to taste like strawberry.
00:33:33.628 --> 00:33:45.748
<v SPEAKER_2>I sometimes think that with the stuff we've done with cauliflower pizza or like, I don't know, it's just cauliflower is good and pizza is good, and why are we doing this for it's neither?
00:33:45.748 --> 00:33:48.428
<v SPEAKER_3>Because we can't eat carbs.
00:33:48.428 --> 00:33:50.528
<v SPEAKER_2>It's just too many carbs.
00:33:50.988 --> 00:33:52.188
<v SPEAKER_3>Is there hummus ice cream?
00:33:52.188 --> 00:33:53.088
<v SPEAKER_2>Leave cauliflower.
00:33:53.088 --> 00:33:54.608
<v SPEAKER_3>There is hummus ice cream.
00:33:54.608 --> 00:33:55.148
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, God.
00:33:55.148 --> 00:33:57.148
<v SPEAKER_3>There is, there's plenty of it.
00:33:57.148 --> 00:33:58.408
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, my God.
00:33:58.408 --> 00:33:59.428
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't know.
00:33:59.428 --> 00:34:02.308
<v SPEAKER_2>It's also just one of those things like it's so good at room temperature.
00:34:02.308 --> 00:34:04.288
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't really want it or warm.
00:34:04.288 --> 00:34:07.068
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't want it cooked into something else.
00:34:07.068 --> 00:34:09.628
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't want hummus bread or hummus cake.
00:34:09.628 --> 00:34:14.068
<v SPEAKER_2>Although tahini has been a very popular ingredient in desserts and baked goods for years now.
00:34:15.128 --> 00:34:20.908
<v SPEAKER_2>I feel like it's definitely like tahini ice creams are very common, tahini cookies.
00:34:20.908 --> 00:34:21.808
<v SPEAKER_2>I see them a lot.
00:34:21.808 --> 00:34:22.428
<v SPEAKER_3>Oh, yeah.
00:34:22.428 --> 00:34:23.548
<v SPEAKER_3>I love tahini cookies.
00:34:23.548 --> 00:34:26.948
<v SPEAKER_2>I think I've probably done some stuff with tahini, too, like a muffin.
00:34:26.948 --> 00:34:28.348
<v SPEAKER_2>But yes, it can be good.
00:34:28.548 --> 00:34:31.008
<v SPEAKER_3>I can only eat a tahini bit of it, though.
00:34:32.408 --> 00:34:35.268
<v SPEAKER_2>Moderation is key with tahini.
00:34:35.268 --> 00:34:35.868
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, God.
00:34:35.868 --> 00:34:36.308
<v SPEAKER_2>Okay.
00:34:36.308 --> 00:34:40.928
<v SPEAKER_2>So we're going to have a good time with the wrap up questions today, Kenji.
00:34:41.268 --> 00:34:42.628
<v SPEAKER_2>Can you waffle hummus?
00:34:43.488 --> 00:34:46.268
<v SPEAKER_3>I don't think you can put hummus in a waffle iron.
00:34:46.268 --> 00:34:52.588
<v SPEAKER_2>So I feel like you could definitely do a savory waffle and put hummus on it, but that wasn't really what the question was.
00:34:52.588 --> 00:34:54.188
<v SPEAKER_3>A falafel waffle.
00:34:54.188 --> 00:34:55.528
<v SPEAKER_2>Falafel waffle.
00:34:55.528 --> 00:34:56.708
<v SPEAKER_2>God, that sounds really good.
00:34:56.888 --> 00:34:59.208
<v SPEAKER_2>Actually falafel waffle would probably be delicious.
00:34:59.208 --> 00:35:00.208
<v SPEAKER_3>Falafel is wonderful in a waffle iron.
00:35:00.208 --> 00:35:04.608
<v SPEAKER_2>If it wasn't too, I tend to, well, we'll do falafel in another episode.
00:35:04.608 --> 00:35:06.228
<v SPEAKER_3>We should do a falafel episode, yeah.
00:35:06.228 --> 00:35:12.928
<v SPEAKER_2>Falafel episode would be really fun because I think there's a lot of misunderstandings about how falafel is made, so maybe it's a good topic.
00:35:12.928 --> 00:35:17.768
<v SPEAKER_2>Does hummus taco, I guess you could put it in a taco.
00:35:17.768 --> 00:35:28.668
<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, yeah, I feel like if you're getting a real thin leavened tine bread and you're dipping it in hummus and you're pulling up some chunks of other stuff, you've basically made a taco, right?
00:35:28.668 --> 00:35:29.488
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.
00:35:29.828 --> 00:35:34.388
<v SPEAKER_3>Or is this like we're defining a food by its form?
00:35:34.388 --> 00:35:34.808
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.
00:35:34.808 --> 00:35:37.068
<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, I don't know what came first, the taco or the pita.
00:35:37.348 --> 00:35:46.028
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm not interested in being an authority on that or saying it wrong, but you can definitely put it in a taco.
00:35:46.028 --> 00:35:46.768
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.
00:35:46.908 --> 00:35:48.228
<v SPEAKER_3>There's tacos arabes, right?
00:35:48.228 --> 00:35:54.148
<v SPEAKER_3>Like Arab tacos in Mexico, which are tacos made on pita bread by Lebanese immigrants.
00:35:54.148 --> 00:35:54.728
<v SPEAKER_3>Really?
00:35:54.728 --> 00:35:55.108
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.
00:35:56.768 --> 00:36:00.108
<v SPEAKER_3>I'm sure you can find versions that have hummus on them.
00:36:00.108 --> 00:36:01.388
<v SPEAKER_2>That sounds amazing to me.
00:36:01.388 --> 00:36:03.208
<v SPEAKER_2>I would eat the hell out of that.
00:36:03.208 --> 00:36:03.608
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.
00:36:03.668 --> 00:36:04.868
<v SPEAKER_2>Leftover hummus?
00:36:04.868 --> 00:36:06.568
<v SPEAKER_3>What's that, Deb?
00:36:06.568 --> 00:36:07.188
<v SPEAKER_3>Never heard of it.
00:36:07.188 --> 00:36:08.408
<v SPEAKER_1>I know.
00:36:08.408 --> 00:36:08.748
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.
00:36:09.108 --> 00:36:10.168
<v SPEAKER_3>Hummus is great leftover.
00:36:11.048 --> 00:36:20.888
<v SPEAKER_3>If you make it fresh, I feel like you do want to do it with the honor of letting it come to room temperature, or even microwaving it for a second and beating it so that it's even room temperature.
00:36:20.888 --> 00:36:23.008
<v SPEAKER_2>It usually needs to be re-smoothed.
00:36:23.008 --> 00:36:27.588
<v SPEAKER_2>Just sometimes you might need another drop of water or whatever to loosen it up, but when it's fresh.
00:36:27.588 --> 00:36:30.288
<v SPEAKER_2>But I think it's way better at room temperature too.
00:36:30.288 --> 00:36:33.268
<v SPEAKER_2>Can you cook hummus in a pan with butter?
00:36:33.388 --> 00:36:35.368
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm just going to say no.
00:36:35.368 --> 00:36:40.108
<v SPEAKER_2>Although apparently you can cook tahini in a pan without butter.
00:36:40.628 --> 00:36:41.628
<v SPEAKER_3>Not with the butter, yeah.
00:36:42.128 --> 00:36:45.408
<v SPEAKER_3>You can cook tahini to turn it into a roasted sesame paste.
00:36:45.408 --> 00:36:46.148
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.
00:36:46.148 --> 00:36:49.208
<v SPEAKER_2>Can you get hummus out of kids' clothes?
00:36:49.208 --> 00:36:49.708
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.
00:36:49.708 --> 00:36:50.668
<v SPEAKER_2>Usually.
00:36:50.668 --> 00:36:50.968
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.
00:36:50.968 --> 00:36:52.728
<v SPEAKER_2>Not the olive oil spilled over it?
00:36:52.728 --> 00:36:55.728
<v SPEAKER_3>Not the olive oil spill, but the hummus itself, yeah.
00:36:55.728 --> 00:36:56.288
<v SPEAKER_2>Exactly.
00:36:56.288 --> 00:36:58.048
<v SPEAKER_2>Although I'm sure my kids would find a way.
00:36:58.048 --> 00:37:04.968
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't know if you could get red velvet hummus out of kids' clothes, but hopefully, we'll never have to find out.
00:37:06.828 --> 00:37:09.668
<v SPEAKER_3>That's it for today's episode, but we want to hear from you.
00:37:09.668 --> 00:37:12.448
<v SPEAKER_2>Is there another recipe or food you want us to chat about?
00:37:12.448 --> 00:37:14.908
<v SPEAKER_2>Any comments or questions about this week's dish?
00:37:14.908 --> 00:37:19.248
<v SPEAKER_3>Tell us at therecipepodcast.com or at KenjiandDeb.
00:37:19.248 --> 00:37:23.628
<v SPEAKER_2>The recipe is created and co-hosted by Deb Perelman and Kenji Lopez-Alt.
00:37:23.628 --> 00:37:29.068
<v SPEAKER_2>Our producers are Jocelyn Gonzalez, Perry Gregory, and Pedro Rafael Rosado of PRX Productions.
00:37:30.148 --> 00:37:32.348
<v SPEAKER_3>Yuri Lasordo is the Managing Producer.
00:37:32.348 --> 00:37:38.588
<v SPEAKER_3>Emmanuel Johnson is the Audience Engagement Manager, and the Executive Producer for Radiotopia is Audrey Mardovich.
00:37:38.588 --> 00:37:39.228
<v SPEAKER_3>Thanks for listening.
00:37:52.127 --> 00:37:54.207
<v SPEAKER_1>Radiotopia, from PRX.
