Ep25: French Toast (with Christopher Kimball)
Crisp on the outside, custardy on the inside – this week we’re talking French Toast with special guest Christopher Kimball (Milk Street). Chris joins Kenji and Deb to banter about bread for longer than any podcast ever has (not fact checked) – and how each of them perfects this classic breakfast dish. Plus, Kenji dispels a myth about smoke points!
Recipes Mentioned:
Carmelized Cinnamon Sugar French Toast (Smitten Kitchen Keepers)
Perfect quick and easy french toast (Serious Eats)
French Toast, Perfected (Milk Street)
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<v SPEAKER_1>On Proxy, Yo-Wei shackles your emotional conundrums and she finds you a Proxy to talk to, someone who's been in your situation or has relevant experience and can hopefully provide the insight you need.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Do you suffer from misophonia?
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<v SPEAKER_1>Is that what it's called?
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<v SPEAKER_4>Yes.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Chewing noises right at the top of things.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Here we go.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Now he took, he stuffed an entire piece of French toast in his mouth.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Great.
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<v SPEAKER_2>That's real good.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Oh, that's great.
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<v SPEAKER_3>From PRX's Radiotopia, this is The Recipe with Kenji and Deb, where we help you discover your own perfect recipes.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Kenji is the author of The Food Lab and The Walk and a columnist for The New York Times.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Deb is the creator of Smitten Kitchen.
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<v SPEAKER_2>She's also the author of three best-selling cookbooks.
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<v SPEAKER_3>We've been professional recipe developers for nearly two decades, and we've got the same basic goal, to make recipes that work for you and to make you excited to get into the kitchen.
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<v SPEAKER_2>But we've got really different approaches, and on this show, we'll cook and talk about each other's recipes, comparing notes to see what we can learn from each other.
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<v SPEAKER_3>This week on The Recipe, we're talking about French Toast.
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<v SPEAKER_2>We've got a special guest.
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<v SPEAKER_2>He is my old boss.
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<v SPEAKER_2>He is the host of Milk Street Radio.
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<v SPEAKER_2>He is the host of the Milk Street TV show, as well as the founder of Milk Street Magazine, former editor-in-chief of Cooks Illustrated Magazine, former host of America's Test Kitchen.
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<v SPEAKER_2>This is Chris Kimball on The Recipe this week.
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<v SPEAKER_5>So, my mom, she is a New Yorker, but she's retired to Texas, and Texas, iconically, not really known for their bagels.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Kenji, is that my French Toast?
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<v SPEAKER_2>Your French Toast is real good, but the French Toast next to it, which I made after making yours, is better, and we can talk about that.
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<v SPEAKER_3>No, that would be impossible, so you must have done something wrong.
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<v SPEAKER_3>What's the French Toast next to my French Toast?
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<v SPEAKER_2>When I was making your French Toast, I had some of the egg mixture left over, and I also had some of the cinnamon sugar left over.
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<v SPEAKER_2>And your recipe, you soak your baguette slices in the egg mixture, then you roll them in sugar, and then you bake it all.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I just took a regular slice of bread, it was shokupan, Japanese bread.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I did my normal method, so I just kind of soaked it for a little bit in the egg mixture, and then rolled it in the cinnamon sugar mixture, and then fried it in butter in a pan, and it comes out better, fried in butter in a pan.
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<v SPEAKER_4>You just said a regular slice of bread, shokupan, like milk bread, right?
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<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.
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<v SPEAKER_4>That's your typical, regular, everyday bread, milk bread.
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<v SPEAKER_3>You don't keep that around the kitchen, Chris?
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<v SPEAKER_3>That's not your standard go-to slice bread?
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<v SPEAKER_4>This is the Japanese bakery I do go to occasionally, but it's not my regular bread now.
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<v SPEAKER_3>It's not my regular bread at all, but I don't live in Kenji's world.
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<v SPEAKER_3>I wish I did, it sounds delicious.
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<v SPEAKER_2>The three recipes that we shared with each other are pretty classic French toast recipes, although I think Chris' strays a little bit more than ours do, but I'd say we start with talking about French toast as we know it in the US, and then we can talk a little bit about French toast around the world.
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<v SPEAKER_3>What is the history of French toast?
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<v SPEAKER_3>It's not French, I can tell you that.
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<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, although the French call it Pan Perdue, which is lost bread.
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<v SPEAKER_2>The bread was lost until it's stale, and this is the way to rescue the bread that has been lost.
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<v SPEAKER_4>If you think all through Europe and England, stale bread was used all the time, like sour milk, stale bread.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Stale bread was hence bread pudding, hence Pan Perdue.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Prior to plastic and prior to refrigeration and prior to modern, the ingredients that we stick in bread to keep it moist and stable in the supermarket shelf, bread went stale a lot faster.
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<v SPEAKER_2>So when you buy a loaf of bread from the real bakery that's only using flour, water, yeast, maybe some kind of fat, that bread tends to go stale a lot faster.
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<v SPEAKER_2>So you had a lot more need for stale bread recipes back in the day than we do now.
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<v SPEAKER_2>But like a lot of things, this is one of those things where the results of frugality is so delicious that we still continue to do it, despite most of the time not needing to do it.
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<v SPEAKER_2>In fact, in some recipes, I think you purposely dry out the bread before you make your French toast, because you're making it presumably with fresh bread or bread that has enough stabilizers and preservatives in it that it doesn't go stale the way bread used to go stale.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I think we should say at the outset, there is something intensely wrong about this recipe.
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<v SPEAKER_4>It's slabs of milky, gelatinous bread.
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<v SPEAKER_4>The first problem is, if you start with sandwich bread, you're doomed.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I really think you are.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I mean, it's very hard to get a crispy outside and a custardy interior, if that's your goal here.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Is that your goal, Chris?
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<v SPEAKER_2>Crispy outside, custardy interior?
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<v SPEAKER_4>I don't want soft and mucky.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I don't want nursery food from the outside to the inside.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I want crisp on the outside, I want custardy on the inside.
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<v SPEAKER_4>But I think it's hard to do with just sandwich bread from the supermarket, right?
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<v SPEAKER_4>Also, I know that Deb used baguette, but baguette seems a little too crusty for this, right?
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<v SPEAKER_4>I mean, that's good, but it's not my idea of French bread necessarily, right?
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<v SPEAKER_3>Of course, it depends on the level of crust.
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<v SPEAKER_3>My mother-in-law always makes French toast with baguettes, and that's really where the jumping off point of the caramelized cinnamon sugar French toast in my last cookbook is.
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<v SPEAKER_3>I always love the simplicity of it.
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<v SPEAKER_3>She doesn't add any sugar to it, and I really liked the way I felt it was much easier to get that crunchy on the outside, although it's the side edges and the custardy inside.
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<v SPEAKER_3>It really picked up nicely and it really crisps up so well in the pan.
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<v SPEAKER_3>So that was really my jumping off point, and also the fact that pretty much five minutes after you buy a baguette, it's going to go stale, or if you don't finish it because you've had people over and you have leftover baguette, it's nice to have a use for it.
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<v SPEAKER_3>That's as delicious as I find it, even though Kenji doesn't agree, but sometimes Kenji is wrong.
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<v SPEAKER_3>I'm going to harass you all day when you don't like one of my recipes, like the audacity.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Speaking of which, I'm going to run because I've got the rest of your French toast in my oven and I don't want it to burn.
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<v SPEAKER_2>You guys keep talking amongst yourselves.
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<v SPEAKER_2>I'll be right back with more French toast.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Does Kenji do this a lot?
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<v SPEAKER_4>He just leaves in the middle of a show.
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<v SPEAKER_3>One time he came back with a waffle iron.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Kenji likes props.
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<v SPEAKER_4>It's basically sandwich bread, a couple of milk, two eggs, some vanilla, right?
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<v SPEAKER_4>That's the basic recipe.
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<v SPEAKER_4>But again, you just get that single texture, and so that's why you like the baguette.
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<v SPEAKER_3>I like the baguette because you get a little bit more crunchier but I'm with you on sandwich bread.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Now, growing up Jewish, we used challah a lot.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Leftover challah was always our standard French toast, and it's super delicious.
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<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, homemade bread made into French toast is exceptionally delicious, but it's not that crisp.
00:09:08.629 --> 00:09:17.389
<v SPEAKER_3>You can fry it in butter or fry it in hot oil and get it crisp, but it's not going to stay crisp because the center of the bread is so soft.
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<v SPEAKER_2>You're talking making it with challah?
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<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, that's what we made it with the most growing up because if you have leftover challah, also my challah recipe on my site uses, it makes two loaves, so it's literally perfect if you want one for like your Friday night dinner and then one for leftovers over the weekend, or you could freeze it and have it.
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<v SPEAKER_3>So that's what we use the most, but it's not crispy.
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<v SPEAKER_3>I agree with you, Chris.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Like it's the softer, the more luxurious the bread, the harder it is to Chris.
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<v SPEAKER_3>But there are some workarounds for that.
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<v SPEAKER_3>I saw in your recipe, Chris, you use semolina flour?
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<v SPEAKER_4>Semolina, I started putting it in my waffle mix, right?
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<v SPEAKER_4>And I noticed that the outside got super crisp, but the inside was still moist.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And then I said, okay, how about pancakes, right?
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<v SPEAKER_4>So I put a couple tablespoons of my pancake batter and the outside got not crisp, but had a firmer texture and the inside was custardy.
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<v SPEAKER_4>And so I said, French Toast.
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<v SPEAKER_4>So we put two tablespoons of semolina.
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<v SPEAKER_4>I think that for me is, I've been doing French Toast for 40 years.
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<v SPEAKER_4>That's the turning point for me.
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<v SPEAKER_2>When you say you're adding semolina, you mean you're adding that directly to the custard?
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<v SPEAKER_4>Right, you whisk it in, that's right.
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<v SPEAKER_2>So your custard is half and half eggs?
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<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, and semolina, and a little and a lot of vanilla.
00:10:35.589 --> 00:10:37.269
<v SPEAKER_4>But all it is is Durham wheat, right?
00:10:37.269 --> 00:10:39.229
<v SPEAKER_4>It's a very high protein wheat.
00:10:39.229 --> 00:10:49.649
<v SPEAKER_4>So I think for me that then you get the crispy outside, and you get the other thing you do as well as sugar, of course, a little sugar on the outside will help crisp it up.
00:10:49.649 --> 00:10:55.169
<v SPEAKER_4>But I think the great thing is someone else told me when they make bread, they do an overnight poolish, right?
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<v SPEAKER_4>So a cup of flour, a cup of water, half a teaspoon of yeast, they replace half of the flour with semolina flour, and then they do the rest of the recipe, and they claim, that's a friend of mine who works here, Matt Card, that you get a much better texture.
00:11:10.049 --> 00:11:14.449
<v SPEAKER_4>So I think maybe semolina is this magic culinary ingredient.
00:11:14.449 --> 00:11:23.169
<v SPEAKER_3>Just like a 411 in semolina, it's Durham wheat, it's a hard wheat flour, and I think we see it most often in pasta making.
00:11:23.669 --> 00:11:25.649
<v SPEAKER_3>It's traditionally used for pasta making.
00:11:25.649 --> 00:11:29.069
<v SPEAKER_3>But when you pick it up, it feels like a very fine, almost silky cornmeal.
00:11:29.069 --> 00:11:31.389
<v SPEAKER_3>It has nothing to do with cornmeal.
00:11:31.389 --> 00:11:35.769
<v SPEAKER_3>But if you were doing a baking recipe, it would give you a finer texture.
00:11:35.769 --> 00:11:36.789
<v SPEAKER_3>It's really beautiful.
00:11:36.789 --> 00:11:39.309
<v SPEAKER_3>But I don't know that everyone keeps it around.
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<v SPEAKER_3>But when you have it, it's fun to work it into things, because it's sturdier than wheat flour than our usual all-purpose flour.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Milk Street, my goal is to always have one ingredient you can't find in every recipe.
00:11:52.469 --> 00:11:55.409
<v SPEAKER_4>So it makes me feel better about myself.
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<v SPEAKER_2>Going back to talking about bread, my French toast growing up that my mom made was made with butter top sandwich bread.
00:12:01.569 --> 00:12:04.829
<v SPEAKER_2>We had Wonder Bread or Butter Top, which I don't know if that brand still exists.
00:12:04.829 --> 00:12:05.949
<v SPEAKER_3>But I remember it.
00:12:05.949 --> 00:12:06.549
<v SPEAKER_3>I could picture the bag.
00:12:06.549 --> 00:12:09.229
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, it was your typical real cheap supermarket sandwich bread.
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<v SPEAKER_2>And our French toast was not crisp.
00:12:12.369 --> 00:12:21.049
<v SPEAKER_2>I didn't understand the idea of having crisp French toast until I think I was an adult and I think actually until Daniel Gritzer at Serious Eats made his recipe for me.
00:12:21.049 --> 00:12:24.609
<v SPEAKER_2>And I was like, oh, this is like different from the French toast I had grown up.
00:12:24.609 --> 00:12:28.809
<v SPEAKER_2>But we would have like a real sort of soft, mushy French toast the way Chris described it.
00:12:28.809 --> 00:12:33.289
<v SPEAKER_2>And we would have it with chunky peanut butter and maple syrup.
00:12:33.289 --> 00:12:34.549
<v SPEAKER_3>Wow.
00:12:34.549 --> 00:12:34.969
<v SPEAKER_3>Okay.
00:12:34.969 --> 00:12:37.749
<v SPEAKER_3>But Hong Kong style French toast uses peanut butter.
00:12:37.749 --> 00:12:39.809
<v SPEAKER_3>It uses, does it use milk bread?
00:12:39.809 --> 00:12:40.489
<v SPEAKER_3>I'm trying to remember.
00:12:40.489 --> 00:12:41.489
<v SPEAKER_3>It uses milk bread.
00:12:41.489 --> 00:12:44.669
<v SPEAKER_3>It soaks it and it's usually stuffed with peanut butter.
00:12:44.809 --> 00:12:47.129
<v SPEAKER_3>And then it's drizzled with condensed milk.
00:12:47.129 --> 00:12:49.569
<v SPEAKER_3>How do we feel about sugar in French toast?
00:12:49.569 --> 00:12:58.389
<v SPEAKER_3>Because even though I do put it in my baguette one, because to me baguettes are so savory, I'm kind of ambivalent about it in French toast in general.
00:12:58.389 --> 00:13:02.509
<v SPEAKER_3>And that is actually just because my kids are going to drench it in maple syrup regardless.
00:13:02.509 --> 00:13:04.729
<v SPEAKER_3>So I don't need to start it sweet.
00:13:04.729 --> 00:13:06.049
<v SPEAKER_3>But how do you guys feel about it?
00:13:06.049 --> 00:13:09.289
<v SPEAKER_4>The only reason we do it is to crisp up the exterior.
00:13:09.489 --> 00:13:13.189
<v SPEAKER_4>I don't want sweetness in my French toast because of the maple syrup.
00:13:13.569 --> 00:13:17.549
<v SPEAKER_4>You might even say French Toast is about the syrup.
00:13:17.549 --> 00:13:20.969
<v SPEAKER_4>I mean, you could at least make a case that it's at least half of it.
00:13:20.969 --> 00:13:24.989
<v SPEAKER_2>Although then it's really a uniquely, that's uniquely an American thing, right?
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<v SPEAKER_2>The maple syrup.
00:13:25.829 --> 00:13:31.189
<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, I feel like maple syrup is such a, although we have it all over the country, I feel like it's much more of a Northeast obsession.
00:13:31.189 --> 00:13:34.129
<v SPEAKER_3>And I feel like as you get further south, it's more of a honey thing.
00:13:34.129 --> 00:13:34.869
<v SPEAKER_3>But I could be wrong.
00:13:34.869 --> 00:13:38.529
<v SPEAKER_3>It's not like a honey maple lime, but there seems to be sometimes.
00:13:38.529 --> 00:13:41.189
<v SPEAKER_4>Well, they use steins or, you know, cane syrup, right?
00:13:41.189 --> 00:13:42.869
<v SPEAKER_4>And the yellow can, that's what they put on it.
00:13:42.969 --> 00:13:44.029
<v SPEAKER_3>It's so delicious.
00:13:44.029 --> 00:13:46.789
<v SPEAKER_4>Well, I used to have a huge maple syrup operation.
00:13:46.789 --> 00:13:50.689
<v SPEAKER_4>So, you know, it runs in my veins, as they say.
00:13:50.689 --> 00:13:58.229
<v SPEAKER_2>I know our listeners can't see this, but I'm going to describe to you what I just pulled out of the oven, which is Deb's recipe for French Toast.
00:13:58.229 --> 00:14:03.489
<v SPEAKER_2>So in your recipe, Deb, so you start by making a real basic custard, just milk and eggs, that's it.
00:14:03.489 --> 00:14:05.829
<v SPEAKER_2>Nothing else, no sugar, no salt, nothing.
00:14:05.829 --> 00:14:07.249
<v SPEAKER_2>Just milk and eggs.
00:14:07.249 --> 00:14:08.329
<v SPEAKER_2>You whisk that together.
00:14:08.329 --> 00:14:10.469
<v SPEAKER_2>You take a baguette, cut it into slices.
00:14:10.469 --> 00:14:14.069
<v SPEAKER_2>You soak them in that milk mixture, turning them over a few times for about 10 minutes.
00:14:14.069 --> 00:14:19.449
<v SPEAKER_2>And then meanwhile, you have a sheet tray that you heat up in the oven with a few tablespoons of butter.
00:14:19.449 --> 00:14:29.069
<v SPEAKER_2>And then once the bread is soaked and the butter is melted, you swirl the butter around the sheet tray, and then you toss, you roll the bread slices in a cinnamon sugar mixture.
00:14:29.149 --> 00:14:32.269
<v SPEAKER_2>I actually use sugar and poudre douce.
00:14:32.269 --> 00:14:33.589
<v SPEAKER_2>What?
00:14:33.589 --> 00:14:37.549
<v SPEAKER_2>It's like a mix of spices, so like cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves.
00:14:37.549 --> 00:14:43.089
<v SPEAKER_2>So you toss them in that sugar and cinnamon mixture, and then you lay them into the butter, and bake them, and you turn them over halfway.
00:14:43.089 --> 00:14:46.989
<v SPEAKER_2>And it says in your recipe, I think it ends up being like 17 minutes total, something like that.
00:14:46.989 --> 00:14:50.109
<v SPEAKER_2>These took more like 25, but it is the first time I've ever used this oven.
00:14:50.109 --> 00:14:51.109
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm in a new apartment.
00:14:51.109 --> 00:14:54.649
<v SPEAKER_2>First time I've ever used this oven, so it's more likely my oven's fault than your recipe's fault.
00:14:54.649 --> 00:14:57.769
<v SPEAKER_2>But they come out really sort of darkly caramelized.
00:14:57.769 --> 00:15:01.289
<v SPEAKER_3>Can you do that TikTok chef thing where you scrape it?
00:15:01.289 --> 00:15:03.769
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh yeah, let's see, can you hear this?
00:15:03.769 --> 00:15:05.409
<v SPEAKER_3>Where you do that like knife scrape thing.
00:15:05.409 --> 00:15:06.629
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh wait, I got the fork, I got the fork.
00:15:06.649 --> 00:15:07.089
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.
00:15:07.089 --> 00:15:09.229
<v SPEAKER_2>All right, I'll put it right next to the maker.
00:15:10.329 --> 00:15:12.869
<v SPEAKER_3>I'm only asking that because it does get crisp.
00:15:12.869 --> 00:15:16.069
<v SPEAKER_3>It really does, but it's the cinnamon sugar on the butter doing it.
00:15:16.069 --> 00:15:17.429
<v SPEAKER_2>And let me try a bite, hold on.
00:15:17.429 --> 00:15:18.649
<v SPEAKER_2>Chris, cover your ears.
00:15:18.649 --> 00:15:19.269
<v SPEAKER_4>Oh Lord.
00:15:19.269 --> 00:15:20.689
<v SPEAKER_3>Don't break a tooth.
00:15:21.969 --> 00:15:24.189
<v SPEAKER_4>That's not French toast.
00:15:24.189 --> 00:15:25.709
<v SPEAKER_4>That's, it's toast.
00:15:25.709 --> 00:15:28.589
<v SPEAKER_4>You just made toast with cinnamon sugar.
00:15:28.909 --> 00:15:29.669
<v SPEAKER_3>Don't smoke.
00:15:29.669 --> 00:15:31.189
<v SPEAKER_3>It's like a shard.
00:15:31.189 --> 00:15:32.409
<v SPEAKER_4>It's dry toast.
00:15:32.409 --> 00:15:34.169
<v SPEAKER_3>Please drink some water.
00:15:34.169 --> 00:15:37.989
<v SPEAKER_3>It would not be good for book sales if you were to be choking on the recipe of mine.
00:15:37.989 --> 00:15:39.589
<v SPEAKER_2>It is absolutely delicious.
00:15:39.589 --> 00:15:42.929
<v SPEAKER_2>It's very different from anything that I would think of as French toast.
00:15:42.929 --> 00:15:45.449
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not as soft as I think of as French toast, but it's real.
00:15:45.449 --> 00:15:47.329
<v SPEAKER_2>You know what would be real good with this?
00:15:47.329 --> 00:15:52.189
<v SPEAKER_2>If you use this as the bread for an ice cream sandwich, that would be delicious.
00:15:52.189 --> 00:15:54.929
<v SPEAKER_3>The main thing is you got to eat it right when it comes out of the oven.
00:15:54.929 --> 00:15:55.909
<v SPEAKER_3>And I think I've worried about this.
00:15:56.709 --> 00:16:03.189
<v SPEAKER_3>Once it cools, yeah, the sugar is going to harden up, so you take it right out of the oven, or the sugar becomes like a caramel shell.
00:16:03.829 --> 00:16:10.769
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I have more traditional French Toast recipes, but I thought that one was fun, because it allowed us to discuss, gave us something interesting to play with.
00:16:10.769 --> 00:16:14.869
<v SPEAKER_3>And it's definitely untraditional, but I love being able to use an old baguette.
00:16:14.869 --> 00:16:17.829
<v SPEAKER_3>And I just, it's just, you did a great job with it.
00:16:17.829 --> 00:16:18.809
<v SPEAKER_3>It looks gorgeous.
00:16:18.809 --> 00:16:24.089
<v SPEAKER_2>It's also real convenient for, you know, because some people are oven people, and some people are stovetop people, you know?
00:16:24.089 --> 00:16:27.929
<v SPEAKER_2>And then some people do every method possible at the same time, like Chris.
00:16:27.929 --> 00:16:34.769
<v SPEAKER_2>But if you're an oven person, like if you're the kind of person who prefers to just throw something in the oven, like this is one of the better ways I've seen to make French Toast in the oven.
00:16:34.769 --> 00:16:39.569
<v SPEAKER_2>Because often you find when people, for oven French Toast recipes, an oven just dries them out, you know?
00:16:39.569 --> 00:16:45.929
<v SPEAKER_2>You don't have as much, you don't have that sort of heat differential you need to get the sort of crispy outside and the softer interior.
00:16:45.929 --> 00:16:55.389
<v SPEAKER_2>But this one, I think because you're doing it in a buttery pan and because you have that, you know, it's that layer of cinnamon sugar on the outside that really caramelizes and forms.
00:16:55.389 --> 00:16:57.449
<v SPEAKER_2>It's almost like the crust on a creme brulee, you know?
00:16:57.449 --> 00:17:01.909
<v SPEAKER_3>I felt like it was almost churro-ish, which I got very, we originally called it churros French Toast.
00:17:01.989 --> 00:17:03.089
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, exactly.
00:17:03.089 --> 00:17:04.409
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
00:17:04.409 --> 00:17:07.829
<v SPEAKER_3>And it was very much, when I worked on it, it was very much a pandemic recipe.
00:17:07.829 --> 00:17:09.109
<v SPEAKER_3>That's when I was working on that book.
00:17:09.109 --> 00:17:10.829
<v SPEAKER_3>And so I had the kids home.
00:17:10.829 --> 00:17:12.229
<v SPEAKER_3>We were cooking all of the time.
00:17:12.229 --> 00:17:13.789
<v SPEAKER_3>I was so sick of cooking.
00:17:13.789 --> 00:17:18.509
<v SPEAKER_3>If I couldn't do it hands off in an oven, I probably wasn't gonna make it.
00:17:18.509 --> 00:17:25.149
<v SPEAKER_3>So a lot of those things that I was previously not doing, I'd normally stand over a stove and fry each piece.
00:17:25.149 --> 00:17:28.029
<v SPEAKER_3>I started looking for shortcuts I didn't usually use.
00:17:28.029 --> 00:17:31.369
<v SPEAKER_3>But let's talk about your recipes, because the semolina sounds really cool.
00:17:32.769 --> 00:17:36.649
<v SPEAKER_3>Now that I have all the ingredients, I'm definitely gonna try it for a sweet dinner tonight.
00:17:36.649 --> 00:17:42.269
<v SPEAKER_3>But the semolina flour, it doesn't sink to the bottom, does it, of the batter?
00:17:42.269 --> 00:17:48.549
<v SPEAKER_4>No, you whisk the ingredients, you dry the bread out in an oven or you can throw it in a toaster and then let it soak.
00:17:48.549 --> 00:17:50.509
<v SPEAKER_4>Now I do let it soak 10 minutes.
00:17:50.509 --> 00:17:51.229
<v SPEAKER_2>Okay.
00:17:51.229 --> 00:17:53.969
<v SPEAKER_2>Can you talk a little bit about drying the bread?
00:17:53.969 --> 00:17:58.729
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, if you take challah, which is what I used, it's of course very soft.
00:17:59.489 --> 00:18:05.869
<v SPEAKER_4>So if you don't dry it out, the texture is going to end up like wet paper towels.
00:18:05.869 --> 00:18:10.269
<v SPEAKER_4>That allows the moisture to go in and hold on without ruining the texture.
00:18:10.269 --> 00:18:13.109
<v SPEAKER_4>So you need to hold on to get rid of some of that moisture.
00:18:13.109 --> 00:18:18.329
<v SPEAKER_4>So at the end of the cooking, you don't end up with something that just falls apart on you.
00:18:18.329 --> 00:18:20.789
<v SPEAKER_4>Now, as I said, you can just throw in the toaster.
00:18:20.789 --> 00:18:23.409
<v SPEAKER_4>You don't want to toast it, you just want to dry it out.
00:18:23.409 --> 00:18:25.169
<v SPEAKER_4>So it'll be just for a minute or so.
00:18:25.649 --> 00:18:29.049
<v SPEAKER_4>I think it's a 325-oven-for-10-minutes, something like that.
00:18:29.049 --> 00:18:30.509
<v SPEAKER_2>That's right.
00:18:30.509 --> 00:18:44.009
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, French toast recipes often call for stale bread, but what you really want is dry bread, not necessarily stale bread because they're two different, but often related processes, staling and drying.
00:18:44.009 --> 00:18:47.109
<v SPEAKER_3>Stale bread is more impenetrable.
00:18:47.109 --> 00:18:48.389
<v SPEAKER_3>What would you say the difference is?
00:18:48.389 --> 00:18:58.509
<v SPEAKER_2>As your bread gets old, the starch that's been gelatinized and is soft and squishy, it retrogrades, it re-crystallizes, and so it becomes firm again.
00:18:58.609 --> 00:19:05.069
<v SPEAKER_2>It happens more with leaner breads, obviously, so that's why a baguette the second day or even a few hours later is going to be really hard.
00:19:05.069 --> 00:19:13.709
<v SPEAKER_2>And that'll happen even if you wrap it in plastic, it will get much firmer because that staling process is independent of the moisture content.
00:19:13.869 --> 00:19:16.609
<v SPEAKER_2>It's the process of the starch retrograding.
00:19:16.609 --> 00:19:22.529
<v SPEAKER_2>But oftentimes, most of the time when something stales, it's also drying because you're leaving it in a bread box or you're leaving it on the counter or whatever.
00:19:22.929 --> 00:19:24.429
<v SPEAKER_2>And so you're also drying it.
00:19:24.429 --> 00:19:33.729
<v SPEAKER_2>But with French Toast, the important part is that it's dry because you want to basically make space for extra custard to be absorbed without turning the whole thing really watery.
00:19:33.729 --> 00:19:36.689
<v SPEAKER_4>Well, the other key for me is a thick slice, right?
00:19:36.689 --> 00:19:38.349
<v SPEAKER_4>Like an inch and a half.
00:19:38.349 --> 00:19:45.249
<v SPEAKER_4>I think in a lot of recipes, you're just taking a slice of bread that's half an inch, three quarters of an inch.
00:19:45.249 --> 00:19:47.749
<v SPEAKER_4>And I think you need a really thick slice.
00:19:47.749 --> 00:19:50.249
<v SPEAKER_4>So there's a big difference between the outside and the inside.
00:19:50.349 --> 00:19:55.189
<v SPEAKER_3>Otherwise, you won't get a chance for it to have multiple textures throughout.
00:19:55.869 --> 00:19:57.629
<v SPEAKER_4>This is all about diversity, right?
00:19:57.629 --> 00:20:03.049
<v SPEAKER_4>It's like you want the outside and the inside to be different, because you want some contrast there, you want something different.
00:20:03.049 --> 00:20:09.829
<v SPEAKER_4>So I think the French toast you did, Deb, clearly had a lot of crunch on the outside.
00:20:09.829 --> 00:20:12.389
<v SPEAKER_3>Kenji actually chipped a tooth on it.
00:20:12.389 --> 00:20:12.969
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.
00:20:12.969 --> 00:20:13.949
<v SPEAKER_3>He's being polite about it.
00:20:13.949 --> 00:20:16.449
<v SPEAKER_4>I can hear it from here.
00:20:16.449 --> 00:20:20.109
<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, like I said, I left it in the oven longer than your recipe called for.
00:20:21.149 --> 00:20:26.309
<v SPEAKER_2>And my oven I think is running low, so I think the bread dried out more in the time that it took to brown than it should have.
00:20:26.309 --> 00:20:28.409
<v SPEAKER_3>Kenji, what kind of bread do you use for your French toast?
00:20:28.409 --> 00:20:29.669
<v SPEAKER_3>What's your go-to?
00:20:29.669 --> 00:20:34.089
<v SPEAKER_2>I almost always use Chocopan for my French toast because Chocopan is my favorite bread.
00:20:34.089 --> 00:20:35.469
<v SPEAKER_2>I always have it for toast.
00:20:35.469 --> 00:20:37.309
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I would use it for French toast as well.
00:20:37.309 --> 00:20:50.989
<v SPEAKER_2>I think it makes the best French toast because it has the, at least for me, it reminds me of the crappy white bread that you buy from the supermarket, but Chocopan has a lot more sturdiness and a lot more texture, and is able to handle the custard more without turning too soft.
00:20:50.989 --> 00:20:58.389
<v SPEAKER_2>What I found interesting in both of your recipes, and Deb's, yours in particular, is that in both of yours, you give it a sprinkle of sugar.
00:20:58.389 --> 00:21:08.289
<v SPEAKER_2>So in Chris's, you dry the bread, you soak it in the custard, and then you sprinkle it with sugar, and you put the sugar side down in a pan, and Deb's, yours, you toss yours in sugar, you roll the bread slices in sugar.
00:21:08.289 --> 00:21:12.289
<v SPEAKER_2>So it gets a pretty heavy coating of sugar and cinnamon on there before you put them in a pan.
00:21:12.289 --> 00:21:22.389
<v SPEAKER_2>The recipe that I think I sent you, which was based partially on Daniel Gritzer's recipe from Serious Eats, partially actually Deb on your old recipe from Smitten Kitchen's sort of a hybrid recipe.
00:21:22.389 --> 00:21:28.249
<v SPEAKER_2>In that one, you fry the bread and then you sugar the top side as you're frying it, and then you flip it over and fry that second side.
00:21:28.249 --> 00:21:32.509
<v SPEAKER_2>And I don't know why it never occurred to me to sugar the whole bread before frying it.
00:21:32.649 --> 00:21:39.609
<v SPEAKER_2>And it's better to leave the sugar out of the batter and add the sugar to the outside because that's how you get that real crisp.
00:21:39.609 --> 00:21:41.049
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, that real crisp crust.
00:21:41.049 --> 00:21:44.489
<v SPEAKER_3>The risk of dipping it though is that you really like, you got to use it fast.
00:21:44.909 --> 00:21:48.089
<v SPEAKER_3>You can't let the batter soaked bread soak there.
00:21:48.349 --> 00:21:49.629
<v SPEAKER_3>The sugar's not going to pick up.
00:21:49.629 --> 00:21:50.489
<v SPEAKER_3>It's going to get wet.
00:21:50.489 --> 00:22:00.609
<v SPEAKER_3>So, sprinkling a little bit from a spoon, it's a little bit less efficient, but you have less of a risk of the sugar getting ruined by dipping it too long.
00:22:00.609 --> 00:22:09.889
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, I can tell you this slice of Choco Pan that I made, which I just soaked in the same batter, just the milk and eggs, and then dipped in the same sugar mixture and then fried in a pan, fried in butter in a skillet.
00:22:09.889 --> 00:22:11.929
<v SPEAKER_2>This is some of the best French Toast I think I've ever made.
00:22:12.289 --> 00:22:13.469
<v SPEAKER_3>So you did a double fry.
00:22:13.469 --> 00:22:17.769
<v SPEAKER_3>So you're frying it first to get the crisp, and then you're adding the sugar and caramelize the sugar.
00:22:17.769 --> 00:22:21.049
<v SPEAKER_2>So that was the recipe I sent you, but I think I'm going to change it now.
00:22:21.049 --> 00:22:31.149
<v SPEAKER_2>I think I'm just going to do a straight up soak in a sugar-free batter, a sugar-free custard, and then toss it in a bowl with the cinnamon sugar mixture and fry it in butter.
00:22:31.149 --> 00:22:32.709
<v SPEAKER_4>So I have a question.
00:22:32.709 --> 00:22:38.409
<v SPEAKER_4>Would the French ever make Pam Pardue with bread that's not lost?
00:22:38.789 --> 00:22:51.869
<v SPEAKER_4>In other words, this was, this is a classic case of a culture being frugal and finding a way to use an ingredient that it's past its date, like stale bread, and turning it into something great, right?
00:22:51.869 --> 00:23:03.669
<v SPEAKER_4>So that makes sense to me, but all of us now are starting with fresh bread, essentially, except maybe the baguette, and we're staling it by putting it in the oven or in the toaster.
00:23:04.149 --> 00:23:07.589
<v SPEAKER_4>So, we're making it lost and then we make French Toast.
00:23:07.589 --> 00:23:14.269
<v SPEAKER_4>I mean, maybe French Toast is only something we should do if we have stale bread sitting around.
00:23:14.269 --> 00:23:22.489
<v SPEAKER_4>I mean, maybe pancakes and waffles make sense, but maybe French Toast is for a particular situation.
00:23:22.489 --> 00:23:29.249
<v SPEAKER_2>But by that argument, you could say, oh, maybe we should only make sausages and bacon when we don't have refrigerators.
00:23:29.249 --> 00:23:32.629
<v SPEAKER_4>Now, that's a bit of a philosophical stretch, Kenji.
00:23:32.649 --> 00:23:33.209
<v SPEAKER_4>Come on now.
00:23:34.089 --> 00:23:37.289
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, that's a bit extreme.
00:23:37.409 --> 00:23:51.289
<v SPEAKER_3>It came from a place of practicality, but I think the reality, yeah, we're going to go to the store and also, I'm not usually using homemade bread for French Toast, except for if I've made two collars and we've got one left over, and I mean, it's exquisite.
00:23:51.669 --> 00:23:57.429
<v SPEAKER_3>The struggle you might have to get it crisp is made up from the flavor of homemade bread that you've cooked again.
00:23:57.429 --> 00:24:06.289
<v SPEAKER_3>But in general, you're using it from the store and it's got, God knows what, Kenji, you probably know, they put in there to keep it soft for weeks on end and in a bag.
00:24:06.289 --> 00:24:08.109
<v SPEAKER_3>So it's going to be soft bread.
00:24:08.109 --> 00:24:11.589
<v SPEAKER_3>And so pretty much, you're going to have to make, it's an extra step.
00:24:11.589 --> 00:24:12.789
<v SPEAKER_3>You're going to have to stale it.
00:24:12.789 --> 00:24:17.569
<v SPEAKER_3>You can't just use it for your recipes and for a lot of French toast.
00:24:17.569 --> 00:24:22.609
<v SPEAKER_3>So you're always going to have an extra step and you're always going to have this squishy bread.
00:24:22.609 --> 00:24:24.229
<v SPEAKER_3>So would the French have come up with it today?
00:24:24.229 --> 00:24:25.389
<v SPEAKER_3>I don't know.
00:24:25.389 --> 00:24:28.189
<v SPEAKER_3>But what most people have around is sandwich bread, right?
00:24:28.189 --> 00:24:32.349
<v SPEAKER_3>Isn't that kind of the go-to, like that American supermarket sandwich bread?
00:24:32.349 --> 00:24:37.309
<v SPEAKER_3>Even if they're not buying Wonder Bread, they're buying some sort of light whole wheat-ish bread.
00:24:37.309 --> 00:24:45.769
<v SPEAKER_3>I feel like that's what most people are trying to use up when they're making French toast unless they're buying a special bread for it.
00:24:45.769 --> 00:24:55.469
<v SPEAKER_3>Of course, often the whole wheat breads are sometimes sweeter than the white breads, because we like to put sugar in whole wheat products in America to make up for the fact that they're whole wheat, I guess.
00:24:59.009 --> 00:25:03.189
<v SPEAKER_2>When we get back from the break, we're going to talk more with Chris Kimball about French Toast.
00:25:03.189 --> 00:25:05.549
<v SPEAKER_2>We're going to talk about cream versus half and half.
00:25:05.549 --> 00:25:07.969
<v SPEAKER_2>We're going to talk about whether you can use butter or not.
00:25:07.969 --> 00:25:11.769
<v SPEAKER_2>And we're going to talk about French Toast variants from around the world.
00:25:11.769 --> 00:25:13.109
<v SPEAKER_2>That's coming up on The Recipe.
00:25:28.913 --> 00:25:35.893
<v SPEAKER_3>Today, we're talking about French Toast on The Recipe, and we have a special guest today, Chris Kimball of Milk Street.
00:25:35.893 --> 00:25:41.413
<v SPEAKER_2>So Chris, in your recipe, you use half and half with your custard mixture.
00:25:41.413 --> 00:25:42.793
<v SPEAKER_2>Does it work with just regular milk?
00:25:42.793 --> 00:25:43.733
<v SPEAKER_2>Does it work with heavy cream?
00:25:43.913 --> 00:25:45.433
<v SPEAKER_2>Why do you choose half and half there?
00:25:45.433 --> 00:25:48.473
<v SPEAKER_4>I couldn't make up my mind, so I had half and half.
00:25:48.473 --> 00:25:52.953
<v SPEAKER_4>No, I started with half milk, half cream, a half cup of each.
00:25:52.953 --> 00:25:54.193
<v SPEAKER_4>That works fine.
00:25:54.193 --> 00:25:57.133
<v SPEAKER_4>I just figured it's easier to call for one thing than two things.
00:25:59.993 --> 00:26:07.733
<v SPEAKER_4>Half and half is not probably the same fat content as half milk, half cream, but it's close enough and people tend to have it around.
00:26:07.733 --> 00:26:08.673
<v SPEAKER_4>That's the reason.
00:26:08.673 --> 00:26:14.353
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm assuming, you being you, you tested it with everything from skim milk up to full fat cream.
00:26:14.473 --> 00:26:16.273
<v SPEAKER_2>What do you find when you have less fat?
00:26:16.813 --> 00:26:18.253
<v SPEAKER_2>Because there's other fat you're adding to it.
00:26:18.253 --> 00:26:20.033
<v SPEAKER_2>The bread you're using is often an enriched type of bread.
00:26:20.033 --> 00:26:22.133
<v SPEAKER_2>You're using challah, which has butter in it already.
00:26:22.133 --> 00:26:22.953
<v SPEAKER_2>There's butter in the pan.
00:26:23.433 --> 00:26:26.853
<v SPEAKER_2>What difference does the fat content of the dairy make?
00:26:27.313 --> 00:26:31.753
<v SPEAKER_4>It's about the custardy texture of the interior because it's an inch and a half thick.
00:26:31.773 --> 00:26:34.173
<v SPEAKER_4>So milk is just too thin.
00:26:34.173 --> 00:26:36.293
<v SPEAKER_4>I mean, you want some body to it.
00:26:36.293 --> 00:26:38.933
<v SPEAKER_4>The semolina provides some body as well.
00:26:38.933 --> 00:26:41.853
<v SPEAKER_4>But you want some dairy fat in there.
00:26:41.853 --> 00:26:47.353
<v SPEAKER_4>As I said, custardy for me is the operating concept here.
00:26:47.353 --> 00:26:51.273
<v SPEAKER_4>And so somewhere between milk and heavy cream is too much.
00:26:51.273 --> 00:26:53.053
<v SPEAKER_4>Milk is too watery.
00:26:53.053 --> 00:26:55.133
<v SPEAKER_4>You don't get that sort of substantial.
00:26:55.433 --> 00:26:57.793
<v SPEAKER_4>You really want a substantial interior.
00:26:57.793 --> 00:27:05.553
<v SPEAKER_2>Have either of you, just an aside, have either of you ever tried using melted ice cream as the base for your French toast?
00:27:05.553 --> 00:27:07.293
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, vanilla ice cream and flour.
00:27:07.293 --> 00:27:08.393
<v SPEAKER_3>Have you done it, Kenji?
00:27:08.393 --> 00:27:09.613
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:27:09.613 --> 00:27:10.493
<v SPEAKER_3>You have?
00:27:10.493 --> 00:27:10.773
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.
00:27:10.773 --> 00:27:11.153
<v SPEAKER_3>Melted ice cream?
00:27:11.153 --> 00:27:11.773
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, it works fine.
00:27:11.773 --> 00:27:12.273
<v SPEAKER_2>It works fine.
00:27:12.273 --> 00:27:18.193
<v SPEAKER_2>It's very sweet and it's much thicker and richer than your normal custard, but it works fine.
00:27:18.193 --> 00:27:21.693
<v SPEAKER_4>When did you test the melted ice cream thing and why?
00:27:21.693 --> 00:27:25.693
<v SPEAKER_2>When I was living in California, so it must have been like five or six years ago.
00:27:25.693 --> 00:27:26.833
<v SPEAKER_2>Why is because?
00:27:26.833 --> 00:27:28.293
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, because of the same reasons.
00:27:28.293 --> 00:27:35.133
<v SPEAKER_2>Ice cream has, you're soaking your French toast in a custard, and ice cream is just frozen custard.
00:27:35.373 --> 00:27:41.873
<v SPEAKER_2>It's got all the same ingredients, slightly different ratio than you normally would, but it seemed like a, hey, why wouldn't that work?
00:27:41.873 --> 00:27:42.833
<v SPEAKER_2>And it does.
00:27:42.833 --> 00:27:47.133
<v SPEAKER_3>Have you guys played around with using a higher proportion of eggs to milk?
00:27:47.133 --> 00:28:02.333
<v SPEAKER_3>I usually use two eggs to one cup of milk, but if you were to add three eggs, would you just, would it taste like scrambled eggs or would you get more of a custardy body to it, even if you were using a less fatty milk dairy product?
00:28:02.713 --> 00:28:07.893
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't think I've ever tested that higher proportion of eggs, at least not in a, not in like a sweet French toast.
00:28:07.893 --> 00:28:17.253
<v SPEAKER_4>You know, the basic formula, I think, Kenji, correct me if I'm wrong, but for custard is like one cup of milk or whatever with two eggs, right?
00:28:17.253 --> 00:28:19.453
<v SPEAKER_4>I mean, that's your standard formula.
00:28:19.973 --> 00:28:24.213
<v SPEAKER_4>So it's interesting to me that that's exactly what you use in French toast as well.
00:28:24.213 --> 00:28:25.793
<v SPEAKER_4>I mean, I think that is the formula.
00:28:25.793 --> 00:28:30.973
<v SPEAKER_4>Two eggs is just the right proportion, whether you're making a custard or you're making French toast.
00:28:30.973 --> 00:28:33.113
<v SPEAKER_4>I don't think you need the third egg, right?
00:28:34.013 --> 00:28:36.373
<v SPEAKER_4>It doesn't improve the texture.
00:28:36.373 --> 00:28:39.953
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, I was wondering, would it improve the texture if you were using a less fatty milk?
00:28:39.953 --> 00:28:44.313
<v SPEAKER_3>Would it give you some of the body that you're missing if you weren't using cream?
00:28:44.313 --> 00:28:47.753
<v SPEAKER_3>I choose two eggs for one cup of milk because I like the soft set of it.
00:28:48.533 --> 00:28:52.673
<v SPEAKER_3>But I definitely see recipes that use a higher proportion of it.
00:28:52.853 --> 00:28:59.933
<v SPEAKER_2>What I found is when you increase the eggs, and something like a British eggy bread has a higher ratio of eggs in its custard.
00:28:59.933 --> 00:29:02.093
<v SPEAKER_4>You get that eggy thing on the outside, right?
00:29:02.093 --> 00:29:02.473
<v SPEAKER_2>Exactly.
00:29:02.473 --> 00:29:04.553
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, it doesn't soak in the same way.
00:29:04.613 --> 00:29:09.213
<v SPEAKER_2>Instead, you get more sort of like a, it's almost like bread inside an omelet.
00:29:09.213 --> 00:29:10.033
<v SPEAKER_2>I think it's great.
00:29:10.273 --> 00:29:12.613
<v SPEAKER_2>There are variations like that around the world.
00:29:12.613 --> 00:29:15.813
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, it's a fundamentally different dish, I think.
00:29:16.693 --> 00:29:19.513
<v SPEAKER_2>Maybe not fundamentally different, but it eats really differently.
00:29:19.513 --> 00:29:21.873
<v SPEAKER_3>So there's a French toast around the world.
00:29:21.873 --> 00:29:29.813
<v SPEAKER_3>I was reading about eggy bread and how it's served with ketchup and marmite, and I have a lot of questions.
00:29:29.813 --> 00:29:32.953
<v SPEAKER_2>Eggy bread being the cute British version of French toast.
00:29:32.953 --> 00:29:37.813
<v SPEAKER_3>But I was more fascinated, so it's definitely savory, fried until golden brown, so it's pretty standard.
00:29:37.813 --> 00:29:42.033
<v SPEAKER_3>I think they're using, it looked like, at least in pictures, like a pretty normal sandwich bread.
00:29:42.793 --> 00:29:53.633
<v SPEAKER_3>But I was more fascinated by it being served with ketchup or brown sauce or marmite, which is something that I can't wrap my head around, but I still want to try it.
00:29:54.353 --> 00:29:55.993
<v SPEAKER_2>Are you a fan of brown sauce?
00:29:55.993 --> 00:29:58.053
<v SPEAKER_3>I have had it with things.
00:29:58.053 --> 00:29:59.873
<v SPEAKER_3>I have never had it with French toast.
00:29:59.873 --> 00:30:00.673
<v SPEAKER_3>How about you?
00:30:00.673 --> 00:30:02.173
<v SPEAKER_2>I've never had it with French toast either.
00:30:02.353 --> 00:30:09.053
<v SPEAKER_2>I had an Irish friend who liked eggy bread, who always said you had to make it with shite white.
00:30:09.053 --> 00:30:10.913
<v SPEAKER_2>He was a fan of ketchup on most things.
00:30:11.133 --> 00:30:12.393
<v SPEAKER_2>That seems to track.
00:30:12.553 --> 00:30:15.413
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm not really an eggs and ketchup guy.
00:30:15.413 --> 00:30:21.033
<v SPEAKER_2>However, eggs and tomatoes as a combination is popular all around the world.
00:30:21.033 --> 00:30:26.353
<v SPEAKER_2>Even when you're making a Chinese stir fried eggs with stir fried eggs with tomatoes, ketchup is a common ingredient in that.
00:30:26.353 --> 00:30:30.473
<v SPEAKER_2>My mother used to make scrambled eggs with tomatoes and a little bit of ketchup.
00:30:30.473 --> 00:30:37.093
<v SPEAKER_3>I felt that I lacked the authority to dismiss eggy bread because it's served with barmite or ketchup as I have not tried it.
00:30:37.093 --> 00:30:43.513
<v SPEAKER_3>And I have not tried it with somebody passionate about it, saying this is why I like it because I think that often unlocks it for me.
00:30:43.513 --> 00:30:49.413
<v SPEAKER_3>But I might still try it and then dismiss it, in which case I will have authority to do so.
00:30:49.413 --> 00:30:54.953
<v SPEAKER_2>Chris, when we were discussing this before we recorded, I think you mentioned Torrijas, the Spanish version.
00:30:54.953 --> 00:30:57.013
<v SPEAKER_4>That's the one with sherry in it, right?
00:30:57.013 --> 00:30:57.993
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, we've made that here.
00:30:57.993 --> 00:31:00.093
<v SPEAKER_4>That is absolutely delicious.
00:31:00.093 --> 00:31:04.873
<v SPEAKER_4>It's a grown up French toast with sherry and it has a ton of flavor.
00:31:04.873 --> 00:31:07.973
<v SPEAKER_4>It's absolutely delicious, but it's not breakfast, right?
00:31:08.673 --> 00:31:12.253
<v SPEAKER_4>It's an afternoon snack or it's dessert.
00:31:12.253 --> 00:31:16.893
<v SPEAKER_3>Is it really just soaked in sherry or is it a sherry custard?
00:31:16.893 --> 00:31:21.813
<v SPEAKER_4>It's a sherry custard, but it has better chew to it, which I really like.
00:31:21.813 --> 00:31:30.493
<v SPEAKER_3>There's Torrijas in Spain and then there's apparently a Mexican kind called T-O-R-E-J-S.
00:31:30.493 --> 00:31:36.973
<v SPEAKER_3>It obviously has the same origin, but it looks a lot more like the one that I had Kenji make.
00:31:37.853 --> 00:31:47.133
<v SPEAKER_4>I think the Torrijas recipe is this flour, a fair amount of flour in it, a lot of eggs, and then it uses sherry as the liquid.
00:31:47.133 --> 00:31:51.273
<v SPEAKER_4>I think they cook it in a skillet and then put it in the oven to finish.
00:31:51.273 --> 00:32:01.613
<v SPEAKER_3>I have seen recipes online that talk that suggest adding flour to the batter to give that similar thickening quality, but I can't imagine it getting more crisp for it.
00:32:01.613 --> 00:32:04.713
<v SPEAKER_3>I think it would just be more coated and less absorbed.
00:32:04.713 --> 00:32:05.853
<v SPEAKER_3>Have you ever tried that, Chris?
00:32:06.513 --> 00:32:13.753
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, when I used to make my traditional French Toast for the kids when they were young, I used a little flour, like a couple of tablespoons of flour.
00:32:13.753 --> 00:32:15.593
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, it just thickened it up a little.
00:32:15.593 --> 00:32:22.633
<v SPEAKER_3>Did you feel like it absorbed better or gave you more of a coating or just gave it more body?
00:32:22.633 --> 00:32:24.953
<v SPEAKER_4>I think it gave it more body.
00:32:24.953 --> 00:32:31.513
<v SPEAKER_4>But as I just said, the Spanish version has quite a lot of flour in it, and it's like sherry instead of milk.
00:32:32.073 --> 00:32:36.733
<v SPEAKER_4>But it's milk, eggs and flour is really the basis for that.
00:32:36.733 --> 00:32:38.413
<v SPEAKER_3>I want to try it very badly, but I have not.
00:32:38.413 --> 00:32:39.393
<v SPEAKER_3>It's very good.
00:32:39.393 --> 00:32:44.553
<v SPEAKER_3>We talked briefly in the beginning about Hong Kong French Toast, but it's such a specific, popular thing.
00:32:44.553 --> 00:32:48.873
<v SPEAKER_3>Kenji, have you ever had it at a tea house, at an authentic?
00:32:48.873 --> 00:32:53.853
<v SPEAKER_2>The version I had was not with peanut butter though, it was with kaya jam, with coconut.
00:32:53.853 --> 00:33:01.993
<v SPEAKER_2>Kaya jam is, I think, more associated with Singapore than Hong Kong necessarily, but kaya jam is basically a coconut custard cream.
00:33:01.993 --> 00:33:09.533
<v SPEAKER_2>It's made with coconut, I think, condensed milk and eggs, and you cook it on a double boiler until it turns into jam-like consistency.
00:33:10.053 --> 00:33:18.293
<v SPEAKER_2>In Singapore, it's spread on toast and little sandwiches, and then you dip it in a soft-boiled egg with soy sauce and white pepper.
00:33:18.293 --> 00:33:19.493
<v SPEAKER_2>It's this sweet and savory thing.
00:33:20.213 --> 00:33:29.073
<v SPEAKER_2>But in Hong Kong, it's like stuffed French toast, where it's two slices, you make a sandwich out of it, then you dip it in batter and you fry it and serve it with butter and syrup.
00:33:29.073 --> 00:33:34.453
<v SPEAKER_3>And I think it's usually with condensed milk on top, which is sweetened condensed milk, which is amazing-looking.
00:33:34.453 --> 00:33:41.393
<v SPEAKER_2>So tell me if you would consider this a French toast variant, a Monte Cristo sandwich?
00:33:41.393 --> 00:33:43.053
<v SPEAKER_3>Interesting.
00:33:43.053 --> 00:33:43.833
<v SPEAKER_2>Is that French toast?
00:33:44.113 --> 00:33:45.773
<v SPEAKER_2>Is that just stuffed French toast?
00:33:45.873 --> 00:33:47.753
<v SPEAKER_4>No, no way.
00:33:47.753 --> 00:33:49.033
<v SPEAKER_4>I mean, come on.
00:33:49.033 --> 00:33:52.493
<v SPEAKER_4>Well, because it's kind of savory.
00:33:52.493 --> 00:33:56.053
<v SPEAKER_4>It's more of a sandwich than it is a French toast, right?
00:33:56.053 --> 00:33:57.213
<v SPEAKER_4>It has a filling.
00:33:57.213 --> 00:34:03.953
<v SPEAKER_2>Okay, so but is stuffed French toast, which is just a sandwich that's dipped in French toast batter and then fried.
00:34:04.373 --> 00:34:06.433
<v SPEAKER_2>You wouldn't consider that French toast?
00:34:06.433 --> 00:34:06.553
<v SPEAKER_4>No.
00:34:06.553 --> 00:34:11.493
<v SPEAKER_2>Like if you have like an almond filling or a peanut butter filling.
00:34:11.493 --> 00:34:24.733
<v SPEAKER_2>For me, the answer to most of these debates is if someone asked you do you want French toast and you said yes, and then they brought you whatever dish it is, would you consider that they had fulfilled the assignment?
00:34:24.733 --> 00:34:25.293
<v SPEAKER_4>No.
00:34:25.293 --> 00:34:25.933
<v SPEAKER_4>The answer would be no.
00:34:25.933 --> 00:34:28.573
<v SPEAKER_2>If they brought you Monte Cristo, the answer would be no.
00:34:28.573 --> 00:34:47.173
<v SPEAKER_2>So for people who are unfamiliar, a Monte Cristo sandwich is a sandwich of ham, I think ham, turkey and Swiss cheese with strawberry jam inside two slices of bread that's then dipped in a custard and fried, either deep-fried or fried like French Toast, and then served with powdered sugar.
00:34:47.173 --> 00:34:51.113
<v SPEAKER_4>Is the strawberry jam something you put in it or is that traditional?
00:34:51.113 --> 00:34:52.733
<v SPEAKER_2>I think that's traditional.
00:34:52.733 --> 00:34:53.513
<v SPEAKER_4>Really?
00:34:53.513 --> 00:34:55.613
<v SPEAKER_2>I believe jam is traditional in a Monte Cristo.
00:34:55.613 --> 00:34:56.713
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.
00:34:56.713 --> 00:35:01.073
<v SPEAKER_2>Deb, have you had Moroccan pasteles, the pigeon pies?
00:35:01.073 --> 00:35:02.293
<v SPEAKER_4>Yes, those are really good.
00:35:02.293 --> 00:35:04.213
<v SPEAKER_2>With powdered sugar and cinnamon on top?
00:35:04.213 --> 00:35:05.013
<v SPEAKER_4>That is the best.
00:35:05.393 --> 00:35:05.613
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah.
00:35:05.613 --> 00:35:07.313
<v SPEAKER_2>They're sweet on the outside, savory in the middle.
00:35:07.313 --> 00:35:08.853
<v SPEAKER_4>It's very thin pastry.
00:35:08.913 --> 00:35:10.633
<v SPEAKER_4>It has nuts and chicken on the inside.
00:35:10.633 --> 00:35:11.373
<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, ground chicken.
00:35:11.933 --> 00:35:12.113
<v SPEAKER_3>I know.
00:35:12.113 --> 00:35:13.973
<v SPEAKER_3>That sounds delicious though.
00:35:15.233 --> 00:35:24.933
<v SPEAKER_2>So Chris, in an email you sent us, you sent me a recipe that has you fry your French toast and butter, but in the header of the email, you said you actually don't fry in butter.
00:35:24.933 --> 00:35:25.553
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.
00:35:25.553 --> 00:35:26.733
<v SPEAKER_2>Because the butter burns.
00:35:26.733 --> 00:35:32.453
<v SPEAKER_2>So I personally find butter to be almost essential for French toast, both for the texture and the flavor.
00:35:32.453 --> 00:35:37.473
<v SPEAKER_2>But so what do you fry your French toast in, and how does the butter make its way into it?
00:35:37.473 --> 00:35:38.973
<v SPEAKER_4>I do actually keep that around.
00:35:39.253 --> 00:35:43.953
<v SPEAKER_4>Now, the problem with the butter is you have to be really careful the skillet doesn't get too hot.
00:35:43.953 --> 00:35:50.953
<v SPEAKER_4>So I find when I do French toast or pancakes, it's medium-low.
00:35:51.073 --> 00:35:57.473
<v SPEAKER_4>It's not medium because even though the recipe I think does say medium, but butter burns very quickly.
00:35:57.473 --> 00:36:04.153
<v SPEAKER_4>And so I use a cast iron pan or griddle and I let it heat up slowly, but it gets hot.
00:36:04.153 --> 00:36:07.133
<v SPEAKER_4>And if you're not careful, you're going to burn the butter in about two seconds.
00:36:07.673 --> 00:36:09.953
<v SPEAKER_4>So you could just use a non-stick spray.
00:36:09.953 --> 00:36:12.373
<v SPEAKER_4>You could use just a tiny bit of butter on it.
00:36:12.373 --> 00:36:15.833
<v SPEAKER_4>I have a really well-seasoned cast iron, so it's not going to stick.
00:36:15.833 --> 00:36:19.773
<v SPEAKER_4>So, but yeah, a little bit of butter is fine, but you got to be careful.
00:36:19.773 --> 00:36:24.873
<v SPEAKER_3>How about a mix of butter and oil so you can bring up the smoke point, but not lose the flavor of butter?
00:36:24.873 --> 00:36:27.113
<v SPEAKER_2>That is a myth, Deb.
00:36:27.113 --> 00:36:28.533
<v SPEAKER_3>Oh my God, correct me.
00:36:28.533 --> 00:36:29.493
<v SPEAKER_3>I love it.
00:36:29.493 --> 00:36:30.133
<v SPEAKER_3>Bring it.
00:36:30.133 --> 00:36:41.773
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, because the smoke point doesn't change when you mix butter and oil, because the smoke comes from the butter solids getting too hot and burning, and they burn at the same temperature regardless of whether you have oil in there or not.
00:36:41.773 --> 00:36:49.713
<v SPEAKER_2>You get less of the smoking and less burnt solids just because you're diluting the butter, but it doesn't actually change the smoke point of the butter.
00:36:49.913 --> 00:36:53.753
<v SPEAKER_2>It will start smoking at the same temperature regardless of if there's oil added or not.
00:36:53.753 --> 00:37:01.333
<v SPEAKER_4>Can I just say that in other parts of the world, like take Rome, Italians are very opinionated about how to cook their pasta.
00:37:02.473 --> 00:37:07.533
<v SPEAKER_4>Here, we're talking about French Toast, going, well, you could like it this way or you could like it that way.
00:37:07.533 --> 00:37:10.813
<v SPEAKER_4>Americans seem to be very easygoing about things.
00:37:10.853 --> 00:37:15.793
<v SPEAKER_4>But other places in the world, they are not easygoing about how to cook their food.
00:37:15.793 --> 00:37:22.253
<v SPEAKER_2>I actually wanted to quickly talk about the last French Toast variation I was thinking of, which is Calcutta Toast.
00:37:22.253 --> 00:37:28.793
<v SPEAKER_2>I've never been to Calcutta, so I've never had it there, but there are internet videos galore of street vendors making this food.
00:37:28.793 --> 00:37:30.613
<v SPEAKER_2>It's essentially, you beat eggs.
00:37:30.893 --> 00:37:42.573
<v SPEAKER_2>Generally, it's with chopped chilies, onion and cilantro, and then some sort of garam masala, some sort of spice mix, and then you dip toast slices in it, and then you dump the whole thing out into a buttered skillet.
00:37:42.573 --> 00:37:58.453
<v SPEAKER_2>And then the way it's made, it's like you pour extra egg mixture in there, so that the egg mixture kind of all pools around, and then when the toast is in there, you flip it over a few times in the wet eggs in the pan, and then you kind of fold it up like origami, like you're folding the egg up in an envelope and fry it on all sides.
00:37:58.453 --> 00:38:03.033
<v SPEAKER_2>And so it ends up as this sort of like hybrid, somewhere between French Toast and a bread omelet.
00:38:03.033 --> 00:38:05.373
<v SPEAKER_2>Some people even call it a bread omelet, like a toast omelet.
00:38:05.373 --> 00:38:08.153
<v SPEAKER_3>I've seen this, and I think it looks amazing, actually.
00:38:08.153 --> 00:38:20.553
<v SPEAKER_2>But savory French Toast, I made a version of savory French Toast a couple years ago that was basically like a cacio e pepe, so it had like grated pecorino, black pepper, and eggs, and that was real tasty.
00:38:20.593 --> 00:38:33.653
<v SPEAKER_3>I've made it a couple times before, but I always struggle with, I always want to put cheese in it, and of course the cheese isn't gonna absorb into the custard, so it does better when you kind of roll it in cheese and go from where a frico edge to it.
00:38:33.653 --> 00:38:37.593
<v SPEAKER_3>Although I remember Kenji didn't like frico when we did it with the grilled cheese.
00:38:37.593 --> 00:38:38.853
<v SPEAKER_3>See, I remember everything.
00:38:38.853 --> 00:38:42.473
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, I think it changes the nature of the grilled cheese.
00:38:42.473 --> 00:38:44.113
<v SPEAKER_3>But how about for French Toast?
00:38:44.113 --> 00:38:50.273
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, if you're talking about savory French Toast, we're already out of the realms of normal stuff anyway, so there's no associations with it.
00:38:50.273 --> 00:38:52.853
<v SPEAKER_3>Chris, have you ever made savory French Toast before?
00:38:52.853 --> 00:39:03.253
<v SPEAKER_4>I'm just sitting here thinking, as the world crumbles around us, the three of us are arguing about whether you like the frico texture around your sandwich.
00:39:03.253 --> 00:39:05.973
<v SPEAKER_4>No, I've not done savory French Toast though.
00:39:05.973 --> 00:39:18.213
<v SPEAKER_3>Chris, thank you so much for being our guest today and for putting up with us, is I really think the big thank you, because I know we can be intolerable at times, but we enjoyed our banter with you and your contributions to the French Toast conversation.
00:39:18.213 --> 00:39:19.213
<v SPEAKER_4>Thank you, thank you.
00:39:24.523 --> 00:39:27.183
<v SPEAKER_3>Kenji, can you waffle French Toast?
00:39:27.183 --> 00:39:29.563
<v SPEAKER_2>I think that's an absolutely yes.
00:39:29.563 --> 00:39:29.763
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.
00:39:29.763 --> 00:39:37.323
<v SPEAKER_2>I haven't tried it, but I bet taking a slice of bread, dipping it in your custard mixture, and just sticking it in a waffle iron would be delicious.
00:39:37.323 --> 00:39:44.663
<v SPEAKER_3>That also would be probably a really good answer, with like the sandwich bread French Toast, like the kind of least exciting kind, would be really good in a waffle.
00:39:44.663 --> 00:39:46.943
<v SPEAKER_3>Can you taco French Toast?
00:39:46.943 --> 00:39:50.263
<v SPEAKER_2>Tuck it into a taco, or use it as the shell for a taco?
00:39:50.263 --> 00:39:51.783
<v SPEAKER_3>I think that's up to interpretation.
00:39:51.783 --> 00:39:57.803
<v SPEAKER_3>I'm picturing shell, so maybe you fold it over one of those floppy pieces of French Toast that nobody likes, and then...
00:39:57.803 --> 00:40:01.783
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, or as an additional topping to a choco taco.
00:40:01.783 --> 00:40:04.063
<v SPEAKER_3>Oh, okay, that sounds better.
00:40:04.063 --> 00:40:06.223
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes, you can fry it in butter in a pan.
00:40:06.223 --> 00:40:08.763
<v SPEAKER_3>Next question, how's leftover French Toast?
00:40:08.763 --> 00:40:12.623
<v SPEAKER_3>Do you have any special techniques for warming it up if it's leftover?
00:40:12.623 --> 00:40:14.643
<v SPEAKER_2>No.
00:40:14.643 --> 00:40:30.103
<v SPEAKER_3>I'm a 350 on a sheet pan kind of girl for most things that I'm reheating, so I would probably spread the slices out and try to get a little more edge to them in the oven as reheating it, but in general it's fine leftover, but it's not going to have any nuanced texture left the next day.
00:40:30.103 --> 00:40:33.823
<v SPEAKER_3>And does French Toast come out of kids' clothes easily?
00:40:33.823 --> 00:40:35.563
<v SPEAKER_2>French Toast, yes.
00:40:35.563 --> 00:40:37.403
<v SPEAKER_2>Syrup, no.
00:40:37.623 --> 00:40:57.863
<v SPEAKER_2>The problem is, well, syrup does come out easily when you put it in the wash, but the problem is that most of the situations where you're having syrup is right after you've put the clothes on and when you're taking the kids somewhere, and they get it on their hands and they get it on the corners of their sleeves, and then you try and put their hands in their jackets, and then they get the fuzz on the inside of their jackets gets covered in maple syrup.
00:40:57.923 --> 00:41:03.303
<v SPEAKER_3>You generally don't see it until you've already gotten somewhere and your kids look like they have nobody caring for them at all.
00:41:03.323 --> 00:41:08.883
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.
00:41:08.883 --> 00:41:13.563
<v SPEAKER_3>The Recipe is created and co-hosted by Deb Perelman and Kenji López-Alt.
00:41:13.563 --> 00:41:19.403
<v SPEAKER_3>Our producers are Jocelyn Gonzalez, Perry Gregory, and Pedro Rafael Rosado of PRX Productions.
00:41:19.763 --> 00:41:28.403
<v SPEAKER_2>Yuri Lasordo is the managing producer, Emmanuel Johnson is the audience engagement manager, and the executive producer for Radiotopia is Audrey Martovich.
00:41:28.403 --> 00:41:29.083
<v SPEAKER_2>Thanks for listening.
00:41:37.191 --> 00:41:45.471
<v SPEAKER_3>The Recipe with Kenji and Deb is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, creator-owned, listener-supported podcasts.
00:41:45.471 --> 00:41:48.111
<v SPEAKER_3>Discover audio with vision at radiotopia.fm.
00:41:52.671 --> 00:41:54.731
<v SPEAKER_5>Radio-topia from PRX.
